what happened to made in USA handguns/guns

[Run&Shoot]

The firearms industry isn't much different than other manufacturing in regards to foreign and domsetic production. many reasons lead to the current state of a multitude foreign manufacturers selling here:

1) The US is the #1 consumer and LEO market for firearms. Most manufacturers will eventually try to sell here to get in on the biggest piece of the worldwide pie.

2) "Free trade" makes it easier for foreign manufacturers to sell here, although I suspect it isn't necessarily as open to ours selling elsewhere.

3) With increased worldwide travel and shipment at cheaper costs, almost anyone can become a seller to the US market.

4) Foreign labor is often much cheaper than in the US. for example, part of our IT team in Brazil can hire top notch software consultants there at 1/3 the cost of similar talent here in the US. 4a) US labor costs have skyrocketed with mandated or negotiated health care and retirement benefits, which often are more than the actual cost of labor and materials for the real operation.

5) With the reduction in the cold war (did we really eliminate it?) many countries no longer have a high volume demand by their own military, or are no longer isolated behind the Iron Curtain. So theylook to the US as a new market to break into.

What is very interesting is that so many smaller manufacturers of firearms are thriving in the US. In most industries the large corporations encourage increased regulation and "entry barriers" that make it increasingly more difficult for the small business to operate and survive. Big business likes big government. Small businesses cannot afford the increased overhead to comply with government regulations and reporting requirements. this leads eventually to just a few very large competitors (certainly not a cartel, right?) that sell worldwide. Look at health care, autos, electronics, etc.

Is it because firearms have special protection under the 2nd Ammendment that allows many small firms to succeed without? I don't know why, but it seems odd, and refreshing, that firearms manufacturing so far has not been regulated into something that only six huge multinationals can still afford to operate.

If you really want to support freedom, then perhaps we should buy from our smaller independent US manufacturers. Winchester and Remington are owned by large corps, so maybe Savage and Ruger would be better alternatives (too bad about Marlin being bought by Remington!). Not sure which hanfgun manufacturers would fall into the "small independent US" category.

Ruger, Kel-tec, I guess S&W does now, maybe Springfield Armory, Kimber. Though some favorites like Beretta, FN, Browning, H&K would be in the multinationalist category. Even though not owned in the US, some foreign firms are smaller and more independent, and often manufacture popular models in the US such as Glock, maybe SIG, Taurus, etc.

Thinking about this I would favor small firm over a multinational, even if the small firm were foriegn and the multinational was US. Multinationals really have zero allegiance to their home country, so being based in the US may not mean much in terms of their politics, who they do business with, or where parts are made or assembled. But, you can almost be guaranteed that in the long run a multinational favors tight control of the masses and open access to cheap labor and ravenous consumer markets.

Gee, maybe we should start "socially responsible gun buying", that is, buy soon and buy often from your local independent firearms manufacturer!

 

[Prince Yamato]

Long live China North Industries!

 

[DMK]

We have some fine US makers as well, Ruger, Colt, Springfield, S&W and a few others.

Springfield make be a US company, but the XD is made in Europe (Slovakia?), and the 1911 frames are made by Imbel in Brazil.

 

[Ash]

The XD is Croatian. Springfield makes long-arms (though they used to import a great many, including FAL's) but no handguns. And, given the rapid increase in communist China's economic power, Yamato can rest assured that NORINCO will continue to live quite well.

Ash

 

[btg3]

The USA enjoyed 3 decades of economic bliss following WWII. The rest of the world was bombed out and could hardly muster any significant global competition. During that time, US companies could grossly mis-manage and still succeed. But Europe and Asia got busy rebuilding their industrial base and by the mid 1970's the US started to get a reality check. In a nutshell, our highly vaunted accounting systems (Sloan, et. al.) give a distorted picture of our productiveness and quality -- thus we manage US business with bad information. Others on the planet have not been hamstrung with entrenched accounting ills and have used better accounting tools to successfully compete with the US. The US is responding, but it won't be quickly resolved. Culturally, we have enjoyed a time of ease and plenty and comparatively we have become lazy. Getting back to work will be painful and require better education -- thus we are headed for a shrinking middle class and wider separation between the haves and have-nots. This will happen regardless of who's control of our legislature, but liberal dominance would likely perpetuate rather than correct our cultural problems. The US will rebound, but the question is how quickly.

To dig deeper a good read is "Rebirth of Amercian Industry", William H. Waddell
http://www.amazon.com/review/produc...cm_cr_acr_txt?_encoding=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

 

[doc2rn]

Foreign companies that are doing well make their products here in the US. Look at Honda and Toyota, both have plants here and both are doing great. Look at GM, Chrysler, and Ford who moved S. of the border and they are in trouble. My point is companies who outsourced to save a little lost alot of quality, and if Nafta gets repealed by the next President (please!) America may be able to avoid a recession. Not to mention put up barriers against the cheap chinese junk, what I wouldn't give to be able to buy Rubber Maid products again (thanks Walmart).
I buy Rugers! 1) they fit me 2) they are overbuilt 3) really good QC 4) they put the bullet where I aimed it. All but 2 of my guns are American, (Glock & Mossin). I dont feel really compelled to buy foreign and I do weigh all my purchases.
BTG3 has a point, but we rebuilt the factories and infrastructure to keep their (other contries) economy viable. Now our infrastructure is old and worn out so they outsource to the other countries. What I dont get is why we forgave them of their debt. Only Finland has ever repaid the US in full on an outstanding debt.

 

[kamagong]

Nothing wrong with US handguns. I own a Ruger Mark III, a Kimber Custom II, a Les Baer Concept II and am waiting on a Springfield Custom Carry. The three I have now are all well made, reliable, and accurate. What else do you want?

 

[JohnBT]

What else? My Rohrbaugh of course - American made, too.

And a Freedom Arms.

And a US Fire Arms www.usfirearms.com

And maybe even one Kahr.

A Wilson and a Brown, too.

John

 

[JohnBT]

And a Caspian. Or maybe just one or two of every frame and slide combination.

 

[GTSteve03]

Let's see... Beretta started making the first guns oh, about five hundred years ago. Considering Italy, Germany and Austria (home of Beretta, HK, Sig, and Glock) have been fighting each other on and off for the last 500 years, I would say they have a pretty good track record of making quality weapons.

Sorry, but even the oldest US gun company, Remington, has been around less than 200 years. I'm a big fan of US made but for firearms, it seems like the Europeans really know their stuff.

 

[Ash]

Europe? Like FN from Belgium, right? Oh, but wait, what about those Belgian suicide special revolvers and cheap shotguns of the 1800's and early 1900's? To long ago, right? Okay, then Germany. Yeah, like Rohm (RG) and early Weirarchs, you know, the infamous zinc-framed Saturday Night Specials that could not hold timing. Oh yeah, plus those dangerously cheap Single Action Army copies from the 1960's. (And, of course, German Automobile Engineering - the Trabant.) And there's that old civilization in Spain that brought us the multitude of Eibar pistols, some being great some being absolute crap. And while it is true Beretta hails from Italy, but Italy also produced the Brixia and Glisenti autos.

There is nothing genetic about the European ability to produce firearms, cars, or anything else. There have been plenty of turds and dangerous firearms emanating from there and sold here.

Ash

 

[JERRY]

depends on what you want out of a gun.....

the lowest cost, best performing guns are made elsewhere.....

 

[GTSteve03]

There is nothing genetic about the European ability to produce firearms, cars, or anything else. There have been plenty of turds and dangerous firearms emanating from there and sold here.

Were any of those weapons companies you listed ever used in any European army? I sure doubt it.

Companies like HK, SIG, Glock, FN, and Beretta get the military contracts because they know their stuff. When a government wants to defend itself, it goes to the guys that know how to do it right. And like I said, they've had 500 years to work on it.

 

[mikec]

And, of course, German Automobile Engineering - the Trabant.

A vehicle produced in a Communist country. It wasn't pretty or clean but according to some web searching they lasted a long time, +25 years.

 

[serrano]

Yeah guys I know they foreign companies have factories here. But the money from the guns we buy goes overseas.

Well, some of it goes to pay the salaries of the American workers in the US plants.

What happens when these companies don't like our politics or what we are doing in some other country and decide not to sell in the US. How would we be able to mount another WWII style build up.

Well, for the factories in the US, the Govt. would take them over...

My point is I fear for the American firearms industry and the fact that some of you see nothing wrong with this or my use of the terms globalism/outsourcing show how conditioned we have become in such a short time span (20yrs) and how far gone the industry is as a whole.

Globalism/outsourcing isn't 'bad' or 'good' in the same way a gun can't be 'evil'. Globalism/outsourcing is just a part of the modern economy, it's a result of competition and the pursuit of wealth - and if that's not American I don't know what is!

If the liberals get their way and in less than a year they might and the california style regulations continue it will be very easy to regulate to death the domestic firearms industry and the only game in town will be the foreign guns made here or not.

In this rather extreme scenario the only US firearms companies that would survive would be those with military contracts. A scary thought, but not a likely one in my opinion.

 

[Ash]

The Trabant was not a good car. Revisionism aside, they did not hold up at all. Some folks have a 1978 Monza still, but that hardly makes it a good car.

And to those who got a bit miffed about my post, beyond the fact that Glock has NO history before the 1980s beyond making tools, that H&K is a new concern, and platitudes aside about who the governments go to for the goods , my entire post was in response to the meaningless assumption that because our oldest company is a mere 180 years old, that we cannot possibly have the pedigree to produce arms.

This is, of course, patently absurd. All your companies listed are successful because of American innovation. From the earliest innovation that mean that America was producing muskets that were identical to each other and had parts interchangeability that no other nation could boast (Beretta's products at the time were 100% hand made, which meant parts could not be interchanged in the field) to the assembly line process to the basic design concepts that both Glock and H&K use in their pistols. Those are all American.

And, the lowest-priced best revolvers in the world are Rugers. The Ruger 22 automatics are also among the best and certainly are the longest lasting design out there, while at the same time being cheaper than the rest. S&W revolvers are the best revolvers in the world, save for hyper-expensive custom jobs. Ruger Autos are top-notch as well even if they are ugly.

Now, I am a CZ-75 guy. My only US auto is the Ruger 22. I have Colt revolvers. But the point that Europeans are better because they have been doing it longer is meanlingless. We taught them how to make arms cheaply and in large quantities. Of course, that is because many of their best minds came to America and figured it all out in the more fertile grounds available here.

But, if you want to go with pedigrees, then Colt is older than H&K and Glock combined and had cornered the market on government supply for decades. It is, therefore, certainly a more competent company, right? Remington was providing military arms to the World before FN was organized, before Gaston's dad was born, and before H&K emerged from the ashes of WWII. Therefore Remington's long arms are certainly supperior to those?

But, then, Beretta has been around a while, quite a long while. And of course their rifles are the best in the world and used by every military, right? Wait, no, they aren't. None of Italy's long arms have been adopted wide-spread.

But what is a fact is that many of these vaunted European companies have set up production in the US using, gasp of all gasps, US workers to build their firearms. When the US wanted military weapons, they went not to Europe, they went to Georgia.

The fact remains that the genetic argument is no good. That FN is doing so well is proof not of their pedigree, but of their management's unwillingness to become mired in stagnation like many companies, US and otherwise, happen. One of the greatest rifle manufacturing and designing companies in the world, Mauser, is gone (most Mausers made post WWII were actually made by Heym, most 98's were Czech or FN produced). Webley is gone. BSA is gone. These had true pedigrees, too, but could not keep up.

Ash

 

[Gunther]

Thanks Ash, there are a few of us left

 

[Jim K]

Just for info, immediately prior to WWII, there were 5 companies in the U.S. making handguns - Colt, S&W, High Standard, Iver Johnson, and Harrington & Richardson. The only importer of note was Stoeger, who brought in a few Lugers and other oddities every year.

Today it is difficult to be sure which companies still make their guns here, vs. those which import all or some of the line, but American companies would include Colt, S&W, Ruger, Springfield Armory, Kahr, Kel-Tec, High Point, Baer, Kimber, North American, USFA, Para-Ordnance, and Olympic. And the selection is vastly wider. Then there are the foreign companies making handguns here, like FNH, SIG, Walther, etc.

And of course, and in spite of the anti-gunners, more handguns are sold every year than the pre-war companies ever dreamed of. And they are often cheaper (adjusted for inflation), thanks in part to new manufacturing techniques. So I am not sure we are in such bad shape.

Jim

 

[crankshop1000]

One word... NAFTA. The stupidest idea ever put into effect.The basis for us becoming dependent on every third world country on earth for our essential items.We get wheat from China,garbage from Canada,oil from Arabia,water from France,guns from Brazil and the Phillipines and unemployment in Michigan.Passing NAFTA was like passing a law REQUIRING we buy something foreign over something domestic, just to make up for the "unfair wealth and standard of living" we have worked for over the years.We should all be ashamed of ourselves as Americans and give it all back.

 

[Ash]

Of course, NAFTA only applies to Canada and Mexico and Central America. As far as I know, only the Canadians manage to supply us with handguns. Nothing seems to come out of Mexico.

Brazil, Croatia, Austria, South Africa, Argentina, the Phillippines, and China are not a part of NAFTA as of course, they are not in North America.

Our demand for imported goods comes from our demand for cheaper products. I, personally, won't buy foreign tools or batteries. I also buy cars built in the US, though I have no problem with Toyota or Nissan as they purchase parts and supplies from many US firms.

I refuse to buy from China unless I have absolutely no choice - but I do like Chinese food.

Ash

 

[Run&Shoot]

Although NAFTA is not responsible for the global shift fo imports, it was the stepping stone to GATT and the WTO which are.

All of those regional and global trade agreements are about making sure multinational corporations have access to the cheapest labor and can ship those cheap products easily to the most profitable markets. It has nothing to do what is best for any of the individual countries involved.

which is why I am amazed that the US firearms industry is as varied as it is with so many small firms. Usually globalized trade forces the localized firms out and only a few huge firms can afford to compete on that global stage. Somehow the firearms industry seems to be taking advantage of those trade agreements while also being an anomaly to them. Any ideas why this is?

 

[Youngster]

I think at least some of the blame lies with the mechanically conservative American gun buyer, who's buying habits discouraged fresh ideas from the domestic gunmakers, who've now for the most part been playing catch-up since the '70s.