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What happened to the 10mm???

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by 17poundr, Mar 9, 2007.

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  1. 17poundr

    17poundr Member

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    I wonder when looking at ballistic charts, that the obviously greatest all rounder from the 'normal semi auto ammo', is the 10mm, and yet, it has only a fiew manufacturers both in the ammo and guns that fire it... I belive that the 10mm was thought out intentionally to be the 'next generation replacement of the 9mm parabellum', but somethign happened and it didnt catch on, exept in some swat like organisations in Europe, who took to the Heckler & Koch Mp-5 made for the 10mm...

    But otherwize it became an endangered species.
    Also, what is kind of funny is that Smith & Wesson basically took the 10mm, made it a bit shorter, and out came the .40cal S&W!!! Now this one has been very succesfull, and why not? It's a good bullet... But the 10mm is better!

    Now, as I see it America has been in the nostalgic 45apc 'thing' for a couple of years, and as it starts to wear off, there is new opportunities to really look at ammo, I for one do not understand why the NATO countries havent taken to the 6.8mm rounds specially developed to make a follower for the .223rem/5.56NATO. I understand that as many NATO countries are involved in war at Afganistans and/or Iraq's jihhadi fields, so it isnt the time to change ones ammo... But the change is shurely coming, it would be dumb not to, even though special forces of US tried new 75grain extra long range ammo in their Socom m-16 rifles, and pushed the 'very accurate' boundary from the normal circa 300 meters to about 700 meters, how much this had to do with the new ammo, and how much with the gun is unknown, probably a bit of both...

    But, in the handgun, it somehow makes me sad that the US special forces are going back to the 45apc, as there are more modern rounds out there, do not get me wrong, the 45apc is a great round, no question, and so are all the other classics, the thing is that NEW ammo has been developed, and it's by far better! Put that together with new guns, and guns in general will start to have better performances.

    Think about the Socom, having become more or less the new gun for the US Army, but as it now fires 6.8mm ammo, it's range is now about 800 meters, as all the new rifles have somekind of special zoom sights...

    Or in handguns, the army, and cops, and regurlar citizens packed new guns from the major manufacturers, taking full advantage of the 10mm's powerful, straight ballistic qualities... Civilians and cops, defend themselves with rounds that 'mushroom' on impact, but if miss, they are of frangible qualities and thus pretty much stop onto the face of the brick wall they have hit...

    And, for those into practical I do not have to tell of the qualities of the 10mm, as this is the only reason why the rounds and guns for them are still arround...

    So, why not the sig357? I hear somebody saying, indeed, indeed, now there is a modern good bullet that is similar in performace, the sig357, is a .40s&w case with a 9mm round on it, thus giving the extra gunpowder to push the bullet into faster realms... Probably the speeds are similar to the 10mm, so the only difference is that the sig357 fits more rounds into a clip, but get's smaller wound tracts, hitting power is pretty similar I belive... The 10mm going a bit further before what I call the 'ballistic droop', happens.

    As you know, rounds usually go pretty straight, until that critical loss of speed has started to take over with ever increasing co-operation from gravity, in other words, they go straight, start to bend down a bit, and then cometh the great downward bend that happens rather fast, but do not be fooled, in ww1 and to some extent ww2 when people were really good with their shooting, this was taken advantage of, the maxim mg's then in use with all sides, were sometimes set behind a hill, and pre-measured so that they knew exactly where their bullets would start to fall down onto which area, and one guy would act as a forward observer, and give the sign, the enemy would be in dire straights when bullets started to whizz as if from nowhere, and they still had enough power to kill men, so there.

    Anyway, I wish that more of the big gun manufacturers would make 10mm bullets, and design good double stack clips for it. Also the 357sig is imho much more worth the trouble than a .40s&w, which again, I think is a good round, but there are better imho.

    And as for the 45apc, we know it will never go away, I'm only dumbfounded that all these fancy gunmakers, like Kimber for example are such traditionals, that they still turn out the otherwize wonderfully improved, and beautiful model 1911, but cant bother to put that respecful attitude into increasing the clip from that ridiculous 7 round thing that many a multi thousand dollar 1911 still comes with! It's completely incomprehencible to me, it's like saying, please put these model 1936 brakes in my new BMW, I just love the feel of them... I mean, the bullets and propellants ect for the 45apc have gone up, and so forth...

    Think about this, the 45apc and 9mm parabellum have been with us from before ww1 unless I'm off with a couple of years with the 45.

    Now, we can have model 1911 guns, firing 10mm ammo no probs, and still honour the venerable old vet... And anyway, if I had to choose a consealable 'panic self defence' gun, I would go probably for wartrhog's wonderfully compact, but angry little 45apc spitter! (That is if I lived in a country where getting licences isnt from hell, and using a gun for self defence doesnt get you into jail pretty much automatically, be thankful for your rights, oh my US brethren). :eek: EU gun laws are just too tight, it's insulting that a guy who was trained and exelled in shooting guns in the national service he did for his country, isnt even allowed a 22 plinker licence! And, no I do not have a criminal record. Think about it.

    But for my four or five inch barrel (why dont they ever marry the two and make just 4 and a half inch barrels, and satisfy both needs at once)? :rolleyes:

    I mean, now that ceramic barrels are just coming into the fore in more expencive SVI type guns 'for example', with threads that start halfway in the barrel! And then only with a very low turn rate and accelerate at the end to produce amazing spins ect... I belive that as guns get more and more sophisticated, we should follow up by taking the most modern ammo to go with them, and get the best possbile results!

    YOURS TRULY: Mr Poundr.

    P.S. please give your oppinion, learning (I wish that any erronious info would be corrected, for I am but a student in this great hobby of ours), or just pictures, links ect, then please let rip like a 6.8mm fmj boat tail! and share!

    Here is something that everybody should be aware of, very expencive custom guns, that use some of the newest tech in their guns, there is even s gun builder, that a Finnish gun mag used to produce the most coolest hangun I have ever seen in .40s&wcal!!! It cost 'only' about four thousand dollars...

    But, the thing is that there is no other like it on this planet as far as the article writer and his buddy who ordered the gun knew about! So, if you really want a supercool gun, here is: http://www.sviguns.com/

    This other place is also good, If Kimber 1911s are mercedes benzes of 45apc's, then I guess these are kind of Rolls Royce's! Here check it out: http://www.nighthawkcustom.com/detail.aspx?ID=2#
     
  2. Seven For Sure

    Seven For Sure Member

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  3. Whirlwind06

    Whirlwind06 Member

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    I don't think the .45 "thing" will ever really wear off.
    It has been around for so long and is a proven round. I see more pistols chambered in .45 then there were 10-15 years ago.

    Seems like when I was first old enough to buy a handgun (20 years ago), If you wanted a .45 it was a 1911. Now just about everybody sells a pistol in .45.

    I think the 10mm will be like the .41 mag. Never super popular but never quite going away either.
     
  4. GRIZ22

    GRIZ22 Member

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    The easy answer to this is the billions of dollars it would take to do so. Testing, new weapons, ammo, and training would be very, very expensive. Adpopting a new weapon and cartridge is much more difficult than running down to the gun shop and putting your money on the counter. The 5.56 and M16 platform are not perfect but work most of the time and nothing is 100%. Even parachutes have a failure rate and they are a lot less complicated than a weapons system and the enemy it's used against.
     
  5. redactor

    redactor Member

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    The purpose of a sidearm

    Is to put an end to a conflict at arm's length. The .45 ACP has a good record in doing just that. It is unclear to me why we need to move away from something that works well, just because it isn't modern. Seems to me that the 3.0 litre per flush toilet is pretty modern. ;)
     
  6. kokapelli

    kokapelli Member

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    You might ask the FBI why they stopped using the 10mm.
     
  7. ball3006

    ball3006 Member

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    The 10mm is a fairly hot cartridge....

    so, the gun itself needs to be more robust aka heavier, ammo is more expensive aka big bucks, and the gun pounds you harder aka kicks, which means you will not shoot it as much recreationally to become proficient. The fact of the matter is, it is not how powerful the cartridge at sending the bullet downrange faster, but where you put the bullet aka accuracy. A heavy gun wears you out and a hard kicking gun may give you a flinch. More spent on ammo means less beer in the fridge.........chris3
     
  8. shooter1

    shooter1 Member

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    I just checked-------------------nothing has happened to my 10mms! :neener:
    str1
     
  9. Zundfolge

    Zundfolge Member

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    Because affirmative action made them hire too many women and nancy boys that couldn't handle the recoil :evil:



    10mm is going through a renaissance lately ... lots of new guns chambered in it.
     
  10. varoadking

    varoadking Member

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    It's quite alive and well in my gunsafe - S&W 1066 and 1086...

    I wouldn't put the Kimber that high up on the food chain - not by a long shot. I like my Nighthawk...I like my YOBO Colt too...

    [​IMG]
     
  11. Alan Fud

    Alan Fud Member

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    I'd love to see Kahr redesign the Tommy Gun in a 10mm. :)
     
  12. Myself

    Myself Member

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    AO actually chambered the Thompson in 10mm during the time the FBI was fooling around with the 1076. They are very rare, I do not know how well they work.
     
  13. Ohen Cepel

    Ohen Cepel Member

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    The 10mm is a fine round for the correct usage. I dropped a 300lb+ wild boar with one shot from it.

    It might be a bit too much when loaded full for defense use. However, it can always be loaded lighter if that is your need.

    I think it is a great round that got caught in up politics before it had a real chance.

    It will be in my collection for a long time since it meets/exceeds my needs. I love it for what it is.
     
  14. warriorsociologist

    warriorsociologist Member

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  15. 17poundr

    17poundr Member

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    First of all thanks for Seven For Sure for a good ammo site!

    And very many thanks for the exellent pictures of guns that made me drool, let me guess the upper one on the left side is the Nighthawk? It really makes me wish I was in the US and could buy even a used Colt 1911 asap (I never meant to imply that I thought the 45acp is a bad round, I found that shooting it for the first time on an old Colt at my gun club, gave me the second best result of any first time gun of all my life, the first one being a revolver 'colt python', and this was a fixed sight from 25m)!

    Also, thanks for trying to make things more organized mr Warriorsociologist!

    The ammount of 10mm threads, must mean that people are into the round, I remember reading that it was a serious design to replace the 9mm, and a certain ad campaign by a certain 'cartell' pushing the .40 cal dwarfed the 10mm, in a way as if the 45gap would have really took off and made the 45acp very much forgotten (a bad example but the only one that came to mind, and the 'fact' of the .40 being responcible of 'pushing' out the 10mm was not my oppinion).

    As one guy remarked that the Thompson smg was calibrated for the 10mm, I belive that the special forces Heckler & Koch 10mm that is still in use or at least an option for special ops, proves that it was taken as a good calibre.

    By the way, in the ww2 US carabine there was a bullet that was like a looong 45.magnum (I have only seen pictures of it, and that's what it looks like to me, please remember I'm an EU, we have 9mm's and 7.62s)!:rolleyes:

    Anyway, as that gun is one of my dream guns (yep, I am not embarrased to admit that sometimes I dream of the gun collection I would have If I lived in the states)...

    Does anybody know of a table that shows the actual hitting power of FMJ bullets of medium loads, and then the same for expanding bullets, making the most usual calibres (you know 380, 9mm, .40s&w, 10mm, 45 apc and gap, and mag44 and one or all of the .50cal's (are there three handgun one's going now)???

    And the same for rifle rounds, I have a book called Shooters bible, and it has truely full blast tables, but they are too good, and the automatic table at : http://www.gunsandammomag.com/ballistics/

    That is a useful thing to go through, but it doesnt show all in comparison, so that one get's the idea of the real difference in hitting power, also some of the graphs have too much info, and one is left in confusion, but with say, up till 50meters (the maximum general distance for handguns imho, and with the old fashioned sights, one will be a very good shot, or lucky to hit anyway, well depends on the gun, but I'm talking of 'regurlar guns' not some 9inch barrel monster made for hunting or sports), this would be good with the calibres mentioned above, give or take a couple, as I said, calibres like the before mentioned 41magnum are unkown to me, and I have shot most of the popular western, and a couple of the old Eastern block calibres in handgun...

    Thanks for the imput, and please send me pics to drool on!
    Your truly: Mr Poundr.
     
  16. HorseSoldier

    HorseSoldier Member

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    Basically what happened was that it was a hotter round than a lot of people were comfortable shooting (recoil, slower follow up shots, etc.), and came in a format that mostly limited it to single-stack platforms, or double-stacks with very big grips (i.e. Glock 20).
     
  17. sansone

    sansone Member

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    my buddy has the colt delta elite in 10mm.. beautiful weapon but quite a handful. my guess is only large males can shoot them:p
     
  18. 17poundr

    17poundr Member

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    Why do so many good handguns start with an S ???

    Here are a couple of well known good guns, and one that is a complete mystery to me, anybody know of this gun?

    I mean the Sphinx ofcourse...

    As I could only put three pics the following will be for more rare, but defenately guns of my dreams...
     

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  19. 17poundr

    17poundr Member

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    Why do so many good handguns start with an S ??? part II

    Here some more of my dream guns, these are more of the top range In price, although a bit over a thousand dollars for a good STI is worth it I belive, but havent tried it, only read the accolades...
    Apparently one of the 5inch barrelled double stackers from STI was so good that one could barely feel any recoil from a .40cal round! And I know that's good for I felt it on a Glock.

    As for the SVI-Infinity guns, a local gun mag got one made and it cost about 4000 Euro, but it had all these latest stuff galore, and it had fired near to 5000 rounds without any serious cleaning without any problems. Good going huh?

    P.S. I touched on the subject of the 6.8mm, and ofcourse if it does become a new calibre, this will not happen while wars are being fought, this is clear. Also the 5.56mm NATO, has been getting new ammo, like the 75grain round that the special forces have used in their SOCOM 2 gun, with outsanding perofmance to about 700 meters, instead of the 300-400 meters of normal AK-AR type guns...

    Now, so as not to add to confusion like seemed to happen with the multiple 10mm threads, I wonder if there is a 'new round-Socom-6.8, kind of thread or threads going arround here? If it's an already totally chewed up topic then I do not wish to do nothing but read some. So if you know of any threads please put a link.

    Yours truly: Poundr.

    P.S. and pic's of any of your 10mm guns (or that ww2 carbine, is it the m-1)? Please, please put them for me to add to my window shoppers picture collection on my pc :)
     

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  20. TexasRifleman

    TexasRifleman Moderator Emeritus

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    Nothing happened to mine. You kinda scared me there for a minute :evil:

    [​IMG]
     
  21. Dobe

    Dobe member

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    On the 10mm vs. .45 ACP, one reason that the .45 ACP is regaining popularity is the recoil and muzzle blast (or lack of it). The .45 ACP works so well even with military because it is so big. The cartridge is a relatively low pressure round leaving the shooter with a moderate amount of felt recoil.

    Most of the soldiers and Marines are in service for somewhere around three years. In order for Uncle Sam to get his money's worth, these young men (now young men and women) must be trained quickly enough to make the time in service vs. training + mission work viable. The average GI just off of streets can more easily handle the recoil of a .45 ACP than the hotter 10mm.

    Personaly, I have found the .45 ACP easier to shoot than even a 40 S&W round.
     
  22. 10-Ring

    10-Ring Member

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    1st - I don't think the 45 thing will only last another couple of years :rolleyes: That one's a staple in the industry! ;)
    2nd - 10mm basically suffered PC knee to the nads. :scrutiny:
     
  23. briansp82593

    briansp82593 Member

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  24. Mandirigma

    Mandirigma Member

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    Thats the YOBO colt. Notice the 1/* (Translates to: One ass to risk, or One ass to risk for the thin blue line) The one on the bottom right is the Nighthawk, looks like it was built without any slide rollmarks.



    Anyhow you like good looking guns? www.louderthanwords.us
     
  25. 17poundr

    17poundr Member

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    Truely beatiful! If only, if only... Sigh... What do you mean got you worried? Didnt get that one... :confused: :eek:

    Well, I do have good pic's, how about having these for your long guns in 6.8mm???
     

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