What is a bad primer

[mdi]

I worked in machine shops for many years, mostly on automatic screw machines. Ammo is assembled on high speed machinery so if I find an OOPS!, I just think Meh! and toss the offending round in my "weird bucket", Nobody, no machine is perfect...

 

[PWC]

Your second pic looks, to me, like a lite hit.

Seated too deep; short primer "skirt"

Hard primer

Weak spring - check against a case that fired normally.

 

[AJC1]

My primer seating results in the anvil showing in the cup. I dont believe that you can cause that mark and not be bottomed out.

 

[PWC]

If you are having FTF, you are probably fracturing the pellet of explosive betweern the anvil and the primer top.

Is the primer pinch concave? It is set too high. Prime on press or nyhand?

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

My primer seating results in the anvil showing in the cup. I dont believe that you can cause that mark and not be bottomed out.View attachment 1060282

I don't think I've ever seen that before.

 

[LiveLife]

With Remington starting and stoping production and ramping up, trying to catch the ammo crazy. I feel their quality control is laxing and lowered ... Remington 870’s not even trying to match frame and stock. I would skip on Remington primers for a bit. Until they catch up.

Remington went bankrupt and was split up and sold off with ammunition production bought by Vista Outdoor in 2020 (Parent company of CCI/Federal/Speer/Alliant, etc. and firearm production bought by Roundhill Group) - https://investors.vistaoutdoor.com/...mmunition-and-Accessories-Assets/default.aspx

So I fully expect Remington primer quality control to reflect that of CCI/Federal in the future.

My primer seating results in the anvil showing in the cup. I dont believe that you can cause that mark and not be bottomed out.View attachment 1060282

Seating primer is a two (2) step process:

1. Initial resistance we feel is the primer anvil feet hitting the bottom of primer pocket
2. Second resistance we feel is the primer anvil feet pushing against the bottom of primer pocket setting the anvil tip against the priming compound under the cup.

If you stop at step #1 (Above flush or flush, depending on depth of primer pocket), then first primer strike may not ignite the priming compound and just leave a shallow dent on cup while pushing the primer cup deeper and second primer strike will ignite the priming compound.

Your primer cup SHOULD be seated until secondary resistance is felt or about .004" below flush.

Here's US Army AMU's take on primer seating depth - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-and-discussions.778197/page-10#post-11403561

In this post, different brand primers were seated to typical .004" below flush and even "crush depth" .008" and all the primers ignited normally without issue - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...s-90200-hand-held.871506/page-2#post-11567786

 

[PWC]

The anvil is designed to stand proud of the cup so when the primer is seated it pre-stresses the pellet to ensure ignition.

 

[LiveLife]

The anvil is designed to stand proud of the cup so when the primer is seated it pre-stresses the pellet to ensure ignition.

Yes.

Primers are shipped with anvil feet not in contact with priming compound (Likely done for safety reasons so primers won't detonate during hard shipping and handling and bumpy truck rides). Notice anvil feet sticking way outside the primer cup? To set the anvil tip against the priming compound, you need to not only seat the primer cup but deep enough for the anvil feet to slide up inside those cups.

Primer anvils come in different shapes and have different tips. When we seat primers, we need to ensure the anvil tips are properly set (contacting the priming compound) to reliably ignite the priming compound.

Color you see is really not the color of priming compound rather the color of barrier seal or sealant.

 

[Mark_Mark]

Remington went bankrupt and was split up and sold off with ammunition production bought by Vista Outdoor in 2020 (Parent company of CCI/Federal/Speer/Alliant, etc. and firearm production bought by Roundhill Group) - https://investors.vistaoutdoor.com/...mmunition-and-Accessories-Assets/default.aspx

So I fully expect Remington primer quality control to reflect that of CCI/Federal in the future.


Seating primer is a two (2) step process:

1. Initial resistance we feel is the primer anvil feet hitting the bottom of primer pocket
2. Second resistance we feel is the primer anvil feet pushing against the bottom of primer pocket setting the anvil tip against the priming compound under the cup.

If you stop at step #1 (Above flush or flush, depending on depth of primer pocket), then first primer strike may not ignite the priming compound and just leave a shallow dent on cup while pushing the primer cup deeper and second primer strike will ignite the priming compound.

Your primer cup SHOULD be seated until secondary resistance is felt or about .004" below flush.

Here's US Army AMU's take on primer seating depth - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-and-discussions.778197/page-10#post-11403561

In this post, different brand primers were seated to typical .004" below flush and even "crush depth" .008" and all the primers ignited normally without issue - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...s-90200-hand-held.871506/page-2#post-11567786

Vista owns it all but they are run separately. There no Vista Manufacturing headquarters. Just a board room full of investors counting their $$$$ and how they can make more $$$$ on their private island

 

[AJC1]

If you are having FTF, you are probably fracturing the pellet of explosive betweern the anvil and the primer top.

Is the primer pinch concave? It is set too high. Prime on press or nyhand?

Funny as that's exactly the opposite of the problem state earlier. Maybe I'm wrong both ways. I did test 5 cci srp in the same cases and had zero issues. I also had zero problems today. Every single one pictured shot zero issues. Based on the total number of issues and my sample size 5 in 1500 being bad is what it is.

 

[Soonerpesek]

My primer seating results in the anvil showing in the cup. I dont believe that you can cause that mark and not be bottomed out.

I would not argue that....

I don't think I've ever seen that before.

I would also not argue that......

 

[mkl]

My primer seating results in the anvil showing in the cup. I dont believe that you can cause that mark and not be bottomed out.

Never seen that either. Could be that the anvil is pushing through the primer compound and coming to rest on the face of the cup. No compound (explosive) to crush and ignite. Try a different seater so as not to indent the top (face) of the cup?

 

[AJC1]

I would not argue that....




I would also not argue that......

To manly of a grip????

 

[LiveLife]

Vista owns it all but they are run separately. There no Vista Manufacturing headquarters. Just a board room full of investors counting their $$$$ and how they can make more $$$$ on their private island

Consider this.

CCI primers have been known to have harder cups than "normal" and Federal primers have been known to have softer cups. That's been decades long sentiment among reloaders.

Now with Remington ammunition part of bankruptcy purchased, what if Vista Outdoor plans to market Remington primers as "normal" hardness cup primers? That would certainly give Winchester and Winchester Match grade primers a direct competition ... Especially if Vista Outdoor prices Remington primers slightly less than Winchester primers to appeal to the entire primer customer base from soft to hard.

To me, that leaves CBC, who owns Magtech and recently purchased S&B as one of few large non-domestic brand competition other than Wolf/Tula/PMC and Fiocchi unless Armscor decides to enter the primer competition in the USA as they already have ammunition/component (projectile) sales presence - https://ammoterra.com/product/armscor-primers

 

[Zendude]

Yes.

Primers are shipped with anvil feet not in contact with priming compound (Likely done for safety reasons so primers won't detonate during hard shipping and handling and bumpy truck rides). Notice anvil feet sticking way outside the primer cup? To set the anvil tip against the priming compound, you need to not only seat the primer cup but deep enough for the anvil feet to slide up inside those cups.

Primer anvils come in different shapes and have different tips. When we seat primers, we need to ensure the anvil tips are properly set (contacting the priming compound) to reliably ignite the priming compound.

Color you see is really not the color of priming compound rather the color of barrier seal or sealant.

That is interesting. So, seating the primer sort of primes the primer.

 

[AJC1]

That is interesting. So, seating the primer sort of primes the primer.

Yes they are way more sensitive after the anvil is set.

 

[LiveLife]

That is interesting. So, seating the primer sort of primes the primer.

Yes, since primers are shipped with tip of anvil not in contact with the priming compound (Likely done for safety reasons during shipping/handling to prevent detonation), tip of anvil needs to be set against the priming compound during reloading process for reliable detonation.

And since primer pocket depth can vary from number of reloading/firing and user modification (We already measured primer pockets of mixed range brass and found variance in depth in previous threads), seating primer is a two-step process where initial resistance felt pushes primer/anvil feet down to the bottom of pocket and secondary resistance pushes anvil up in the cup to set tip against the priming compound. Depending on primer pocket depth, properly seated primer cup is around .004" below flush.

If primer doesn't detonate on first primer hit but on the second hit, likely anvil tip was not set against the priming compound and first hit seated the primer deeper setting anvil tip (But did not detonate) and second hit detonated the priming compound.

 

[Zendude]

Yes, since primers are shipped with tip of anvil not in contact with the priming compound (Likely done for safety reasons during shipping/handling to prevent detonation), tip of anvil needs to be set against the priming compound for reliable detonation.

And since primer pocket depth can vary from number of reloading/firing and user modification, seating primer is a two-step process where initial resistance felt pushes primer/anvil feet down to the bottom of pocket and secondary resistance pushes anvil up in the cup to set tip against the priming compound. Depending on primer pocket depth, properly seated primer cup is around .004" below flush.

My reloading manuals never explained all that. They just basically say to insert and seat the primer. I feel like I gained some secret wisdom.

 

[LiveLife]

I feel like I gained some secret wisdom.

And I learned that secret here on THR from other members and some no longer with us ... RIP.

 

[PWC]

Funny as that's exactly the opposite of the problem state earlier. Maybe I'm wrong both ways. I did test 5 cci srp in the same cases and had zero issues. I also had zero problems today. Every single one pictured shot zero issues. Based on the total number of issues and my sample size 5 in 1500 being bad is what it is.

Way back in the beginning of this thread, you showed a pic (#2) that looks like a light firing pin strike, now you show pics of primers that have "dimples" that appear to be from the anvil in mixed cases.

Have you changed your primer punch, or the button on the ram? Do you ream primer pockets?

 

[Airborne Falcon]

Remington QC backwards ammo

https://youtube.com/shorts/--EsGQ4odk8?feature=share

Whoa! So it's a real thing.

Good gosh. Makes one wonder.

 

[Airborne Falcon]

Way back in the beginning of this thread, you showed a pic (#2) that looks like a light firing pin strike, now you show pics of primers that have "dimples" that appear to be from the anvil in mixed cases.

Have you changed your primer punch, or the button on the ram? Do you ream primer pockets?

Have you changed your primer punch, or the button on the ram?

That's a good, and really important, point.

 

[Mark_Mark]

Whoa! So it's a real thing.

Good gosh. Makes one wonder.

a few other youtubers had the same issue with backwards bullets

 

[AJC1]

Way back in the beginning of this thread, you showed a pic (#2) that looks like a light firing pin strike, now you show pics of primers that have "dimples" that appear to be from the anvil in mixed cases.

Have you changed your primer punch, or the button on the ram? Do you ream primer pockets?

Changed nothing and the picture of the loads was from the same batch. I do shift from the large to small but havent changed over in 4 months due to not going to the big aka rifle range since fall.

 

[AgPilot]

One that’s not available