What is and isn't legal during a traffic stop?

[Phantom Warrior]

I was talking to a coworker today and she mentioned she got pulled over last night. Apparently a UND Campus Police officer felt that a burnt out headlight warranted not only being pulled over but a rapid U-turn to catch the offender. When he pulled her over he not only asked for her license, but the ID of her passenger (also a coworker). They are both college students and legal adults and neither of them was intoxicated. Not only did he ask the passenger for ID he refused her student ID card (a campus issued picture ID) and asked for her driver's license. He then went back to the squad car and spent several minutes doing stuff, all for a warning.

Another time she was stopped near her home town for speeding and asked to wait in the squad car while the ticket was written out. Her passenger on that occasion was allowed to stay in the car, however.



Both of those stories got me wondering. What can a police officer do during a traffic stop, legally? I know they can search you if they think you are dangerous (Terry stop?) or something, but can they put you in the squad car during a speeding ticket? Or are they ever allowed to ask for a passenger's ID unless drugs or weapons or a major crime is suspected?

Your replies are appreciated...

 

[Dbl0Kevin]

Well your state laws may vary, but in the PRNJ an officer may pull you over for a headlight out. Once pulled over an officer may ask the driver of the vehicle to step outside. We're not allowed to ask the passengers to step out without a reasonable suspicion of something amiss. As for asking for ID the driver MUST show ID or can be detained. We can ASK anyone for ID, though if you weren't driving you're not under an obligation to show it to us unless there is PC that you were involved in an offense.

As for asking someone to wait in the patrol car that's sort of a sticky situation. Being put in a patrol car in most situations equals being put into custody which equals an arrest, unless there are circumstances such as danger to the driver or heavy rain etc.

In NJ we're not even allowed to ASK for consent to search the vehicle without reasonable suspicion that we will find evidence of a crime. So no fishing expeditions.

 

[why_me]

Well thanks to a supreme court decision

An officer can arrest you for minor traffic offenses and take you to jail. It is hard not to side with Gail Atwater, the Texas soccer mom who was hauled off to jail by a bullheaded, small-town cop because her two kids were not wearing seat belts.
She'd unbuckled them for just a moment, she said, so they could poke their heads out the window to look for a toy that had fallen from their pickup truck onto the street. They were on her way home from soccer practice, moving slowly along a deserted road [a dirt road], when a Lago Vista patrolman pulled her over, began berating her, handcuffed and hauled her off to jail.

Atwater paid $310 bail to be released from jail and $110 in towing fees to recover her truck -- for an offense whose maximum penalty was a $50 fine. Later, she sued the city, contending that the officer's behavior violated the Fourth Amendment of the Constitution by subjecting her to an unreasonable arrest.

Virtually everyone agreed the police officer's judgment was bad. Some suspected he was acting on a vendetta. He had pulled Atwater over a few months before because he suspected a seat belt violation but had to let her go because he was wrong. Even the mayor took him to task. "He's like a lot of small-town police officers," former Mayor Glen Hartman told reporters. "His gun and his badge give him a sense of imagined importance."

The city defended the arrest on the grounds that the officer broke no law, because police in Texas have the power to arrest for almost any traffic violation. And on Tuesday, the U.S. Supreme Court sided with the cop. Five of the court's nine justices agreed that even the most minor criminal offense can justify a trip to jail without anyone's rights being violated.

 

[David Scott]

Are Campus Police really sworn officers, or are they rent-a-cops? And might they not be in the habit of using any pretext to pull over attractive young female students for investigation on suspicion of carrying concealed breasts? If that's the case, would they refuse a student ID (which probably has no home address) and demand a driver's license from someone who was not driving?

 

[Moparmike]

Our Campus Police are a certified police organization in the state.



I have been asked for ID when I was a passenger, on a rather shady stop made by a Prarie Grove PD officer a couple years ago. Both the driver and myself were both looking at the stoplight, and I noticed the cop staring right at us. The light was green one second, red the next, right as we passed through the intersection. I, to this day, do not believe that the light legitimately changed while we were traveling. I think she had a switch.

 

[Fletchette]

Are Campus Police really sworn officers, or are they rent-a-cops?

If they're actual police, then they will have "Police" on the side of their car. A hired security guard usually drives a car that says "security" or something like that, but not "Police". It is a crime to impersonate a police officer.

I am not aware of any campus who's police force uses unmarked cars (maybe somebody else is). But in any case a police officer must provide ID if asked.

I've been stopped for a dim headlight! But the officer was clearly looking for drunk drivers (it was late Friday night) and let me go after talking a bit.

As for allowing your car to be searched, if you say "yes" then they can and will search your car and everything is admissible in court. If you don't want them to search, just say "I respectfully decline to give you permission to search my vehicle". Do not under any circumstance attempt to prevent the search physically - you will get immediately arrested for a bunch of things. Just don't give permission and stand there politely. If you do that, and they don't have PC, whatever they find is inadmissible.

To the LEOs out there, I am not trying to advocate being difficult. I had a friend whose wife was driving with her girlfriend interstate who got stopped and allowed a State Trooper to search the vehicle. He took out all the seats, spare tire, floor mats, everything and didn't find anything. He then left the two women alone on the side of the highway at night to put it all back together. I know the vast majority of LEOs wouldn't do that, but she most likely could have avoided a lot of trouble by not giving permission to search.

 

[psyopspec]

I'm only answering because a good gentleman I served with in Iraq works for the UND department, and I'll defend him because it very well could have been him. He's a professional, as are most of the officers on the UND police department.

Apparently a UND Campus Police officer felt that a burnt out headlight warranted not only being pulled over but a rapid U-turn to catch the offender.

In ND, the law says you can't drive at night with one headlight. The reason for this is that one headlight can make a car appear to be a motor cycle or a full set of headlights in the distance to oncoming traffic when in actuality the vehicle is close.

Regarding the "rapid U-turn," police are specially trained in such manuevers. The roads around UND are not exactly filled to rush hour capacity most nights, and since no accident occured, it appears that the manuever was executed safely and no one got hurt. Also, U-turns (slow or rapid) are lawfully allowed on most of the main thoroughfares around campus.

Not only did he ask the passenger for ID he refused her student ID card

Officers can ask for government issued ID legally. Cracker-Jack prize college identification does not count.

He then went back to the squad car and spent several minutes doing stuff, all for a warning

The "stuff" he was doing involved insuring that the vehicle wasn't stolen, that niether your co-worker nor her friend had warrants on them, and writing out the warning. Oddly enough, I doubt you'd be complaining if someone stole your vehicle and the officer solved the case by taking two minutes to run their license and find out. Also, since she broke the law and got off with just a warning, there's very little to complain about.

In my experience, the best way to avoid the inconvenience of being pulled over is to maintain my vehicle and obey the traffic laws. Perhaps your friend should do the same.

Now, that said, any chance I'll see you at the Fargo Civic gun show tomorrow?

 

[Moparmike]

Cracker-Jack prize college identification does not count.

It does count, as it is issued by a state-organization, coincidentally, the same one he works for. If my Student ID isnt valid, then his University Police ID isnt either.

It works both ways.

 

[Taurus 66]

New York Laws

- CCW New York -

If I was "legally" carrying concealed and I get pulled over, is it my "legal" obligation to let the officer know at the very beginning, "I am armed" or could I just follow through with the entire traffic stop without letting on I am packing? I haven't been pulled over yet with a pistol at my side. I would just like to know the proper routine.

 

[psyopspec]

It does count, as it is issued by a state-organization, coincidentally, the same one he works for. If my Student ID isnt valid, then his University Police ID isnt either.

I didn't take a vow to the state and get issued a badge and gun with my college ID. UND's dept. is unique in that they are actual police officers as opposed to a security force. They're credentials are comparable to other LEOs more than they are to students of the campus.

 

[psyopspec]

Taurus 66

You have to carry it with you at all times but you need not notify an officer when carrying.

http://www.packing.org/state/index.jsp/new+york

 

[Moparmike]

I didn't take a vow to the state and get issued a badge and gun with my college ID. UND's dept. is unique in that they are actual police officers as opposed to a security force. They're credentials are comparable to other LEOs more than they are to students of the campus.

All I am saying is that both a Drivers Liscense and a state university's ID are both issued by State sanctioned entities, and when one state employee asks for an ID, the ID provided by the entity he works for should suffice.

It is my understanding that any state-issued ID is valid ID, if there is a photo on it.

 

[AZRickD]

I've been stopped for a dim headlight!

I was stopped because my stock tail light on my truck was the "wrong shade of red." No ticket issued. No warning. Fishing expedition. A waste of my time.

Rick

 

[Amish_Bill]

Even if somehow the Campus Cops are certified as Police, they would still have zero jurisdiction off campus, right?

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Just to keep the discussion moving:

UND police are sworn (certified, tested, gun-carrying, the whole nine yards) law officers.

Student IDs are issued by UND. They have picture, name, and student ID number.

The passenger lives on campus. The driver was dropping her off, so they were on campus at the time.

psyopspec,
If I sound less than thrilled about the cop's actions it is because I'm having a hard time justifying UND Police's existence. UND has little major crime and it seems like the Grand Forks police could handle investigating what we do have. We pay for 8 or so full-time, sworn officers, police facilities (office space, computers, what ever else), our own police chief, and brand new vehicles for them to cruise around campus and issue minors and pull over people with bad head lights. It seems like a waste of money and I would feel much safer if they would reverse their idiotic "no weapons" policy. They just recently OKed _pepper spray_ a full year after Dru Sjodin was kidnapped and murdered.

The "stuff" he was doing involved insuring that the vehicle wasn't stolen, that niether your co-worker nor her friend had warrants on them, and writing out the warning. Oddly enough, I doubt you'd be complaining if someone stole your vehicle and the officer solved the case by taking two minutes to run their license and find out. Also, since she broke the law and got off with just a warning, there's very little to complain about.

Depends on whether it was legal or not. It would be very efficent to stop everyone randomly, check them for warrants, run the plates, and search the car for weapons, drugs, and dismembered Baltic hookers. But that whole civil rights thing has to come in there somewhere... And those rights aren't eroded in big chunks. They are eroded a little bit every time an officer pushes the boundaries "for our own good" and no one calls him on it.

I asked what the law was. I came into this for information, not with a chip in my shoulder. I want to know if the officer overstepped his legal bounds or not. But if he did overstep his responsiblity, then someone has to call him on it. Just like saying "No" when they ask to search your car on a fishing expedition.


I'd like to keep these on the topid of what is and is not allowable during a traffic stop. I don't want to turn this into a big argument over campus police or headlights. But I added the above for information. Hope it helps.

 

[why_me]

I got pulled over for having snow plow lights on

I had my snow plow lights on. Didnt know it. Got a 80 dollar ticket too.

 

[Jeff White]

If ND law prescribes two operable headlights at night, then the officer was totally within his rights to stop the car. If ND law allows him to ask for ID of the passenger, he's within his rights to do so. Right now we can't in Illinois because of a November 2003 Illinois State Supreme Court Decision. We have to be able to articulate reasonable suspicion that that person was involved in criminal activity now to ask for ID from anyone but the driver.....But before that it was pretty much routine. It's a lot safer for the officer if he knows who he's dealing with. As for not accepting school ID, well you can access much more information from the DL. It's the officers call and no one elses. It doesn't sound like this was anything more then a routine traffic stop to me.

Jeff

 

[why_me]

Routine Except

Now there is a record of the person Phantom was with that night. You say "no there wasnt" Oh yes there is. At approximately ""pm Officer freindly called in for a NCIC check on 2 subjects Phantom & so so blah blah blah.
Just so happens So & SO is wanted for questioning because he is a muslim.
The fbi missed there chance for talking to So and SO but they know where phantom menace is. Phantom most definatly must be involved. So and SO was with him. Lets put him under surveillance. Contact the irs this man needs to be audited might be funneling money to Al qaeda.

Know what the problem is? Phantom doesnt know so and so. He is just giving him a ride cause of the hard luck story so & so told him at the gas station he was at

 

[c_yeager]

It does count, as it is issued by a state-organization, coincidentally, the same one he works for. If my Student ID isnt valid, then his University Police ID isnt either.

How much information did you have to provide to be issued your student ID? When i got mine all that was required was my name and student number, they never asked for anything to back it up. Long story short its a HECK of a lot easier to get a fake student ID than anything else. This is why bars rarely except them even as a piece of supplimental ID.

Furthermore the difference between your student ID and his Police ID is that your ID was issued by an organization of the state while his was issued by the state itself, there IS a difference. Our sanitation workers are employees of the state and get ID cards for their workplace. THose ID cards are not equivalent to a driver's license.

 

[only1asterisk]

If they're actual police, then they will have "Police" on the side of their car. A hired security guard usually drives a car that says "security" or something like that.

While this is a fairly good rule of thumb, I am aware of a couple of schools that have noncertified security in cars marked POLICE. Mostly for transport, etc.

I've worked for 4 universities, all of which had sworn officers. The purpose of schools having their own police departments is to keep students from being arrested. Universities are required to publish statistics on campus crime. Campus police are often pressured not to arrest people, or to charge people with lesser crimes than those actually committed in order to keep these figures low. I know of at least 1 court case where officers that didn't submit to these pressures were treated poorly.


David

 

[Dbl0Kevin]

If I sound less than thrilled about the cop's actions it is because I'm having a hard time justifying UND Police's existence. UND has little major crime and it seems like the Grand Forks police could handle investigating what we do have. We pay for 8 or so full-time, sworn officers, police facilities (office space, computers, what ever else)

Ever consider that just might be the reason for such low crime?

Depends on whether it was legal or not. It would be very efficent to stop everyone randomly, check them for warrants, run the plates, and search the car for weapons, drugs, and dismembered Baltic hookers. But that whole civil rights thing has to come in there somewhere... And those rights aren't eroded in big chunks. They are eroded a little bit every time an officer pushes the boundaries "for our own good" and no one calls him on it.

Don't get all bent out of shape. It's standard practice to check wants and warrants on all traffic stops as well as check if the vehicle is stolen.....that's our job. He wasn't doing a "random check" since you were in violation of the law with a busted headlight.....he actually did you a favor in not writing you a ticket.

I want to know if the officer overstepped his legal bounds or not.

Nope not at all. What you may call a fishing trip we call an investigation. We're not supposed to go up to a car with blinders on issue the MV citation and leave. 80% of all arrests originate with MV stops. If you aren't an obvious doper with drugs laying around, drunk off your butt, have a warrant, or have other obvious crimes going on then you have nothing to worry about.

 

[Shootcraps]

- CCW New York -

If I was "legally" carrying concealed and I get pulled over, is it my "legal" obligation to let the officer know at the very beginning, "I am armed" or could I just follow through with the entire traffic stop without letting on I am packing? I haven't been pulled over yet with a pistol at my side. I would just like to know the proper routine.

The laws vary from state to state. In Virginia we are not required to notify the po-po that we are carrying. Check packing.org for NYs laws.

 

[why_me]

Doesnt the license plate of the car

Give away whether it is stolen or not? Dont police usually call in the car before they even go up to the window? Isnt the registered owner usually cross checked for warrants before going up to the window? If the person isnt an obivious doper or drunk, Why is the passenger asked for Id. And if you ask the driver "Do you mind if i search your car?" and he says no what do you do?

 

[Aguila Blanca]

- CCW New York -

If I was "legally" carrying concealed and I get pulled over, is it my "legal" obligation to let the officer know at the very beginning, "I am armed" or could I just follow through with the entire traffic stop without letting on I am packing? I haven't been pulled over yet with a pistol at my side. I would just like to know the proper routine.

Depends on the state. Some states require you to inform the officer if you are carrying, others don't.

In a state where you have to inform them, be discrete about how you do it. "Officer, I have a concealed carry permit and the law requires me to inform you that I am carrying" will probably win you more points than "I've got a gun."

 

[Daemon688]

Let's say you decline the search and the cop does it anyways. He basically disassembles the interior of your car and doesn't put it back together.

What do you do then? Get the guy's name and badge number and have a lawyer deal with it?