What is and isn't legal during a traffic stop?

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Let's say you decline the search and the cop does it anyways. He basically disassembles the interior of your car and doesn't put it back together.

What do you do then? Get the guy's name and badge number and have a lawyer deal with it?

Yep....Never argue law, the constitution or anything else on the side of the road. That's what court is for. If you are right, you stand a chance of winning in court. You stand no chance of winning on the side of the road. In fact you may open yourself up to other charges, resisting, obstruction of justice etc....Even if you win on the search, you'll probably still be convicted on the resisting and obstruction charges.

On the street, everything is stacked in the officer's favor. Argue in court.

Jeff
 
Give away whether it is stolen or not? Dont police usually call in the car before they even go up to the window? Isnt the registered owner usually cross checked for warrants before going up to the window? If the person isnt an obivious doper or drunk, Why is the passenger asked for Id. And if you ask the driver "Do you mind if i search your car?" and he says no what do you do?

No, cars are not called in most of the time (at least in the jurisdictions I have worked in). So you many times walk up to the car without knowledge of who you may be dealing with. Case law is full of decisions on the nature of different types of "stops", and the law is NOT clear on these issues. Further, they vary from state to state. For "officer safety", an officer can inquire as to the passenger's ID; note that courts have ruled that this is a "consentual" encounter, not a detentive situation for the passenger. However, you, as the subject, may not realize that could refuse to produce the ID, as long as the the officer does not have "reasonable suspicion" that you have committed a crime. These are not clear cut issues, and as others have said in this thread - the side of the road is not the place to discuss "Terry v. the State of Ohio", etc.

Boltaction
http://www.individ.us
 
If I sound less than thrilled about the cop's actions it is because I'm having a hard time justifying UND Police's existence. UND has little major crime and it seems like the Grand Forks police could handle investigating what we do have. We pay for 8 or so full-time, sworn officers, police facilities (office space, computers, what ever else), our own police chief, and brand new vehicles for them to cruise around campus and issue minors and pull over people with bad head lights. It seems like a waste of money and I would feel much safer if they would reverse their idiotic "no weapons" policy. They just recently OKed _pepper spray_ a full year after Dru Sjodin was kidnapped and murdered.

Your opinions are completely vaild, and I even agree with a few. Unfortunately they're administrative or political issues. For example, the officer I know had no say on the weapons policy for the campus or the budget for the department. (From personal experience, the captain is an anti-2A bigot though.) My earlier contention remains; you coworker broke the law, got off with a warning, and really doesn't have much to complain about.

As for the student ID/DL, I did a little digging but couldn't find anything about the legalities of asking for ID, or what kind of ID must be produced. I'd like to note that while I couldn't find a court case or law that clearly points out an ID request as legal, that doesn't make it illegal either.
 
Doesnt the license plate of the car give away whether it is stolen or not?

Not if it's been just stolen, not reported, or not entered into the database. Also not every patrol car has a Mobile Data Terminal in it.

Dont police usually call in the car before they even go up to the window?

Not all the time. Tying up the radio with every car stop would be a bad thing if someone really needed to get on. Unless it's obviously suspicious usually it's not called in.

Isnt the registered owner usually cross checked for warrants before going up to the window?

Usually if the officer has the benefit of an Mobile Data Terminal in the car. How exactly are we supposed to know if you're the registered owner just by looking at you though? As I said before it could be freshly stolen, borrowed, etc.

the person isnt an obivious doper or drunk, Why is the passenger asked for Id.

Could be a lot of things. High crime area, reported crime the vehicle fits the description of, gut feeling that something is wrong. Good police work equals investigation....talking to people is how you find out a lot of interesting things. You'd be surprised the stupid things crooks get tripped up in.

And if you ask the driver "Do you mind if i search your car?" and he says no what do you do?

In NJ I can't ask without reasonable suspicion anyway, but in most other places you say no we say "have a nice day". If there is probable cause established by seeing narcotics or an illegal weapon in plain view you are put under arrest and the car is searched anyway.
 
If a LEO doesn't call in a vehicle during a stop, that is just insane.

The driver (or passenger) decides to shoot you and now no one has any idea as to what kind of vehicle you stopped or where you might be.

I'm a LEO FI and part of what I teach is officer safety. I get a real burr under my saddle when I hear some saying they don't call in their stops.

In PA, when we call in the vehicle on the stop, it will come back as either being all good, or suspended, expired or stolen. I will also get the vehicles owner info.

A check of the driver's DL will tell me the same thing and also whether there are any NCIC warrants. If there are local warrants, an officer may chime in that their dept has warrants on him.

Passenger ID, only if the spidey sense is tingling.
 
The one thing that is good for all

is the fact that the officer called in my tags. I know he will be a little more relaxed when he comes up on my vehicle. What i believe he doesnt have a right to do is go fishing. You already know who i am where i live what my birth date is what i look like. That is wnough information to either issue me a citation or let me go. Im going to be polite and cooperative. Polite because thats who i am, i respect the job the police are doing for me. Cooperative because i know i have no choice. And when you start fishing you have disrepected me. Big TIme. Dont call it investigating. Your not. Your fishing. Your wasting your time and mine and i dont appreciate it. Fortuneatly this has happened only in a small town i lived in years ago. Every night i would get pulled over coming from work for broken tail light. But mysteriously
it was only not working everytime i went past the police officer and upon stopping it was working again. Ever had your trunk turned inside out and then questioned about a Ho-HO
Yeah a police officer with back up held up a HO HO and asked me "what is this?"
Its that kind of crud that makes me look in the mirror every time a police officer is behind me. I start thinking "man i hope i dont get pulled over and if i do I hope its a good officer in that car"
 
Its that kind of crud that makes me look in the mirror every time a police officer is behind me. I start thinking "man i hope i dont get pulled over and if i do I hope its a good officer in that car"

I agree with most of the sentiment here. I know I don't generally break any laws so it would be frustrating to me if some cop came along and tried to build a case against me based on smoke and mirrors. But I had to shake my head at your post (a little) because you seem to get pulled over a lot. I'm 43 and been driving since I was 16. I've never been pulled over in my life. For a warning or anything else. I keep thinking it's going to happen _someday_ but not yet! I'll probably blow it big time when the day comes because I've never had any practice!

Gregg
 
Crappy looking cars = Pulled over a lot

rockstar-can.jpg
I was pulled over once this year. Reason i was drinking a Rock Star.
Rock Star is a soda looks like a Big beer can. I was pulled over once last year
reason i was speeding. My fault. I was pulled over 6 times in 2 weeks by same police department in delavan township in 1988 for the mysterious tail light incident. Then i was pulled over by same township for snow plow lights. Then i was pulled over same town ship for license plate light being out. Solution i moved.
 
The USSC ruled in Jan of 2002 than an officer DOES NOT need probable cause to pull a vehicle, only reasonable suspicion that criminal activity is afoot. This means you do not have to break a traffic law in order to be pulled over, I have pulled over cars before which just didn’t look right, wrong neighborhood etc… and have gotten more DUI’s, suspended license and even one wanted person, out of Dekalb County on a Battery warrant.
The courts opinion was unanimous



http://supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/00-1519.ZS.html


SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES
UNITED STATES v. ARVIZU
CERTIORARI TO THE UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE NINTH CIRCUIT

No. 00—1519. Argued November 27, 2001–Decided January 15, 2002

Respondent was stopped by Border Patrol Agent Stoddard while driving on an unpaved road in a remote area of southeastern Arizona. A search of his vehicle revealed more than 100 pounds of marijuana, and he was charged with possession with intent to distribute. The Federal District Court denied respondent’s motion to suppress, citing a number of facts that gave Stoddard reasonable suspicion to stop the vehicle. The Ninth Circuit reversed. In its view, fact-specific weighing of circumstances or other multifactor tests introduced uncertainty and unpredictability into the Fourth Amendment analysis, making it necessary to clearly delimit the factors that an officer may consider in making stops such as this one. It then held that several factors relied upon by the District Court carried little or no weight in the reasonable-suspicion calculus and that the remaining factors were not enough to render the stop permissible.


Held: Considering the totality of the circumstances and giving due weight to the factual inferences drawn by Stoddard and the District Court Judge, Stoddard had reasonable suspicion to believe that respondent was engaged in illegal activity. Because the “balance between the public interest and the individual’s right to personal security,†United States v. Brignoni-Ponce, 422 U.S. 873, 878, tilts in favor of a standard less than probable cause in brief investigatory stops of persons or vehicles, the Fourth Amendment is satisfied if the officer’s action is supported by reasonable suspicion to believe that criminal activity “may be afoot,†United States v. Sokolow, 490 U.S. 1, 7. In making reasonable-suspicion determinations, reviewing courts must look at the “totality of the circumstances†of each case to see whether the detaining officer has a “particularized and objective basis†for suspecting legal wrongdoing. See, e.g., United States v. Cortez, 449 U.S. 411, 417—418. This process allows officers to draw on their own experiences and specialized training to make inferences from and deductions about the cumulative information available. Id., at 418. The Ninth Circuit’s methodology departs sharply from these teachings, and it reached the wrong result in this case. Its evaluation and rejection of certain factors in isolation from each other does not take into account the “totality of the circumstances,†as this Court’s cases have understood that phrase. The court appeared to believe that each of Stoddard’s observations that was by itself susceptible to an innocent explanation was entitled to no weight. Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1, however, precludes this sort of divide-and-conquer analysis. And the court’s view that it was necessary to clearly delimit an officer’s consideration of certain factors to reduce troubling uncertainty also runs counter to this Court’s cases and underestimates the reasonable-suspicion standard’s usefulness in guiding officers in the field. The de novo standard for appellate review of reasonable-suspicion determinations has, inter alia, a tendency to unify precedent and a capacity to provide law enforcement officers the tools to reach the correct decision beforehand. Ornelas v. United States, 517 U.S. 690, 691, 697698. The Ninth Circuit’s approach would seriously undermine the “totality of the circumstances†principle governing the existence vel non of “reasonable suspicion.†Here, it was reasonable for Stoddard to infer from his observations, his vehicle registration check, and his border patrol experience that respondent had set out on a route used by drug smugglers and that he intended to pass through the area during a border patrol shift change; and Stoddard’s assessment of the reactions of respondent and his passengers was entitled to some weight. Although each of the factors alone is susceptible to innocent explanation, and some factors are more probative than others, taken together, they sufficed to form a particularized and objective basis for stopping the vehicle. Pp. 6—11.
232 F.3d 1241, reversed and remanded.


Rehnquist, C. J., delivered the opinion for a unanimous Court. Scalia, J., filed a concurring opinion.
 
Let's say you decline the search and the cop does it anyways. He basically disassembles the interior of your car and doesn't put it back together.

What do you do then? Get the guy's name and badge number and have a lawyer deal with it?

No, you call your lawyer IMMEDIATELY if you are being unlawfully detained or being searched withought Probable Cause or Reasonable Suspicion.




Everyone: The cop in the first post was entirely within his rights, since he had Probalbe Cause (saw a dead headlight) to belive a violation had occured (said headlight.)

He has the right even to ASK for ID of everyone in the car.

However, all passangers may have refused to tender ID, or even speak to the officer, and there would not be thing one he could legally do about that He MAY NOT *order* all passangers to tender ID.

Yes, the 'doing stuff' is a check on warrants/priors/the VIN NUMBER of the car against the licence plate (you could just otherwise steal a good plate.) etc. It's good police work.
 
In this state, a traffic stop is considered an arrest. It is deemed to be a "detention arrest", which basically means that a person is being detained, and the officer has the intent to charge said person with a crime (including minor traffic violations), yet does not intend to transport. When a stop is made here because of a dead headlight, the driver is technically under arrest, but will be released with a citation, barring no additionally discovered criminal activity.

The following is a list of possibilities that can lawfully occur on such a traffic stop:

-the driver and all passengers can be ordered out of the vehicle (there is a USSC case addressing this matter...I'll do a little research and provide it as expeditiously as possible)

-the officer can check driver's DL, vehicle registration, proof of liability insurance, and the VIN#

-the officer can ask questions not related to the stop, so long as it doesn't prolong the stop unecessarily

-the officer can check for warrants

-a criminal history query (III) can be ran

-a canine sniff can be initiated, once again, so long as it doesn't unnecessarily prolong the stop

-the officer can ASK for a consent to search

-the violation/payment procedure can be explained, and the summons can be issued

-the driver/passenger compartment can be frisked with articulable facts justifying reasonable fear/suspicion

-the driver/passenger compartment can be searched with a lawful custodial arrest
 
Hunter wrote: ok... I was always advised that, when asked during a traffic stop for consent to search, I should ask two questions: "Do you have a warrant?" and, if no, "What's your probable cause?". Opinions?

Just say no. If they have a warrant or probable cause they will not ask you to perform a search, they will tell you they are going to perform a search, most likely while you are hand cuffed in the back of their cruiser The reason they ask, is so the uninformed will say yes and thereby waive their rights. Plus when a police officer asks you a question, they don't wan't a question in return. They are not there to answer your questions, they are in control of the situation and they will ask the questions. Short, concise answers are the way to go. Seems harsh, but thats reality. Just my opinion.
 
If they're actual police, then they will have "Police" on the side of their car. A hired security guard usually drives a car that says "security" or something like that.

Except that in some areas volunteers who work with the police dept. (directing traffic etc.) also drive cars that say "Police". In my area, the cars have yellow light bars, rather than red/blue. Other than that, it would be difficult to tell them apart.

Dex }:>=-
 
best thing to do at a traffic stop is.....

#1 Do NOT be disrespectful!

#2 Do not lie.

#3 KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT!!!

#4 If the officer asks you anything and you know you are most likely going to get a ticket anyway, just politely reply "That is the correct address on the DL"

#5 Keep repeating #4 until the officer gets the idea you are not going to open up.

#6 If you begin to get a lecture about "not opening up" and spilling the beans, simply ask if you are free to go. Keep repeating "Am I free to go?".

#7 Still DO NOT be RUDE or disrespectful!!!! Simply stonewall, play dumb and do NOT offer any information.


Running your mouth, guilty of something stupid or not is the BEST way to not have your rights violated. This is probably a good way to get a ticket, however in a few instances after giving these types of responses I have had the officer write me a ticket incorrectly. Fighting the ticket later on is ALWAYS the best idea......settling it on the roadside is not.

:)
 
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ok... I was always advised that, when asked during a traffic stop for consent to search, I should ask two questions: "Do you have a warrant?" and, if no, "What's your probable cause?". Opinions?

There isnt anything technically wrong with this. But, it does kinda make one sound like a smart allek. I think its better just to say something allong the lines of "I'm sorry, but no." It is simply more polite to answer a question with an answer rather than another question. Furthermore if the conversation is being recorded and it somehow winds up in court a difinitive NO sounds better than asking questions. In the schenario you indicated you never actually refused the search, thats important.
 
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