What is Sierra (bullets) thinking? Their prices are ridiculous and I've had enough!!

[jjohnson]

Oh... what about....

Well, since nobody is taking any of this to heart, let me ask a question for those of you 'in the know' with regards to the bullet making industry.....

What about OEM bullet manufacturers?

I mean, many of us know that there are only a couple of manufacturers of smokeless powder either in the US or immediate, traditional trade companies like Nobel. And many of those powders we buy are available in two or more trade names.

What about bullets? I'm pretty sure that Speer, Sierra, and other brand names of bullets actually manufacture their own, but what about, say, Remington, Winchester and those? Don't Remington and Winchester simply buy their bullets made to spec? Who makes the bullets that go into military ball ammo for small arms?

We're all feeling the squeeze. I'm sure most reloaders consider quality as well as cost in buying components. Are there any 'sleeper' products out there that are available in 'generic' packages that are in fact the same product as sold for much higher prices with respected brand names?

 

[MCMXI]

What about bullets? I'm pretty sure that Speer, Sierra, and other brand names of bullets actually manufacture their own, but what about, say, Remington, Winchester and those?

I buy Remington bullets for my .45-70 rifles. A few months ago I bought 1000 405 grain JSP Remington bullets for $247 delivered ... that's less than $0.25 per bullet for a whopping chunk of lead and copper so it makes me wonder about the "cost of raw materials" argument. Remington .308 bullets are about the same cost as Sierra bullets so I didn't consider them as an option.

I just ordered 1000 Nosler 168 grain HPBT bullets for $190. The equivalent Sierra bullets cost $274/1000 ... again, a significant difference in cost and it means I can shoot 1500 Nosler for close to the same cost as 1000 Sierra bullets. I'm hoping that they perform as well as, or better than the Sierra bullets, but if not I'll simply use them in the M1A Scout if/when it gets here.

 

[ReloaderFred]

jjohnson,

Remington, Winchester, Speer, Federal, et. al. all make their own bullets, with the exception of some of the proprietary premium bullets from Barnes and Nosler. I've toured the factories at both Sierra and Nosler, and had extensive conversations with the factory reps from the other large companies at the various SHOT Shows I've attended. For the normal line of ammunition, they make their own bullets.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[wanderinwalker]

I just ordered 1000 Nosler 168 grain HPBT bullets for $190. The equivalent Sierra bullets cost $274/1000 ... again, a significant difference in cost and it means I can shoot 1500 Nosler for close to the same cost as 1000 Sierra bullets. I'm hoping that they perform as well as, or better than the Sierra bullets, but if not I'll simply use them in the M1A Scout if/when it gets here.

1858, you should be happy with those Noslers. I've fired quite a few of the .224" Custom Competition bullets out of my match AR-15. I paid $151/1000 shipped for my latest batch of Nosler 77gr HPBTs; the equivalent Sierras were going to be like $240 or something! No wonder nobody ever has the Noslers in stock anywhere!

As to spiraling prices, I'm going to just keep buying what a need/want for my uses, but no stockpiling.

 

[MCMXI]

The 208gr (.308) A-MAX BT and 75gr (.224) BTHP Hornady bullets arrived today. I opened a box of each to have a look and I'm very impressed with the appearance of the bullets. They look to be well made and look like a quality product. I grabbed 10 "random" 208gr bullets out of a box and weighed them on a digital RCBS scale ...

207.9
207.8
207.9
207.9
207.9
207.8
207.9
208.1
207.8
207.9

I was so impressed that I grabbed a few more ...

207.9
207.9
208.0
207.8

Seems like these should work just fine.

 

[jjohnson]

PRVI and others?

Well, let's see here......

ReloaderFred says most of the American made bullets are in fact made in factories owned by those companies and that they don't do much OEM business (Thanks, Fred!).

So.... if those companies are kinda gouging oh, maybe just a little, is it time to start shopping offshore? Let's see.... for those manufacturers (including Rainier, which I swear to God must be GOLD PLATED) maybe their demand is going to start to dry up. I can still get my .22 ammo at Wally's for $13.47 a carton of 550. I'm more than happy to buy foreign if I don't have good alternatives. I REALLY would prefer to spend my bucks on American made products, but not to where it starts looking stupid. :banghead:And THAT IS looking stupid.

I'm ready to spend more on PRVI components, IMI, Lapua, RWS, Wolf, and all that. I'm also making one resolution for the New Year: I'm going to start CASTING my own. I shoot a lot more handgun than I do rifle these days, and cast covers about 2/3 of everything I send downrange. And I can have a lot of fun with my 20th century military collector's guns by using gas checked lead bullets and THOSE prices may even go DOWN because the market for lead and copper is still headed south.

OK, I feel better, thanks, guys.

 

[35 Whelen]

I'm ready to spend more on PRVI components, IMI, Lapua, RWS, Wolf, and all that. I'm also making one resolution for the New Year: I'm going to start CASTING my own. I shoot a lot more handgun than I do rifle these days, and cast covers about 2/3 of everything I send downrange. And I can have a lot of fun with my 20th century military collector's guns by using gas checked lead bullets and THOSE prices may even go DOWN because the market for lead and copper is still headed south.

NOW you're talking!! I shoot 99% cast bullets....even in my rifles. The only thing I need jacketed rifle bullets for is deer past about 100 yds. and elk. And since I have been buying jacketed bullets for nigh on 25 years, I probably have enough jacketed bullets to last the rest of my life. My cast bullets do everything else quite well. This year alone, 2 of my 3 deer were killed with a cast hollowpoint bullet out of my .308. For pistol shooting, I personally see no need for jacketed bullets. Even if I were to get a wild hair and want to hunt with a pistol, I'd likely use a wide flat point, or SWC design.
For my milsurps, cast bullets are THE way to go. I've found cast bullets to be extremely accurate especially in those with somewhat oversized groove diameters such as the Enfields and Mosins.
35W

 

[Grump]

Run the math on the commodities pricing. Calculate the dollar value of the copper and lead. Be generous and price the entire weight as being the price of copper.

Double that price to allow for a nice profit margin on the deal.

Assume fully $2.00 energy costs to make the durned things. Triple that for the summer run-up on prices.

Add $2.00 a box for CGL liability insurance (really now, what IS the lawsuit exposure for those who just make the bullets???).

What's your labor cost? A crew of how many people makes how many hundreds of thousands of bullets per YEAR?? Add 40% to the hourly wage for benefits, and another 21% or so for the marginal rate for corporate income taxes.

Add in the executive pay, marketing and advertising, R&D, some profit dividends for the owners or shareholders....

And then add a generous $3.00 per box to ship them to your dealer.

AND THERE STILL IS NO WAY THAT COMMODITIES AND ENERGY COSTS AND SHIPPING CAN JACK PRICES $12 PER HUNDRED BULLETS!

I'm not buying Sierras again until they come down in price. Even Hornady is getting a bit enthusiastic on pricing for some of their bullets.

 

[jjohnson]

Yeah, and another thing. Bullet Replacements

Yep, there's guys who cast really good gas checked rifle bullets for $12-15 per hundred, and they're VERY good bullets. Check www.gunbroker.com and look for gutshot_again (user).

No, they DON'T make the best match bullets or the best varmint bullets ( I don't think I'd ask even a really good cast, gas checked bullet to go 4000 FPS in my .22-250). I shoot little enough big game that I still may buy jacketed bullets again, but to tell the truth, I have a few hundred of everything I shoot in that category already loaded (6.5 x 55 up through 8mm Mauser, all .30 calibers in between). I can wait another decade before I just HAVE to buy more of that stuff. My friends at the only government agency that did me good (US Postal Service makes it easy for me to afford shipping of lead stuff. I can't say that for, oh, MIDWAY for example. :banghead:

The bullet manufacturerers are starting to look to me like they run GAS STATIONS Yeah, it makes me that mad.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

1858,

Nosler also just started making the Custom Competition bullets in 175 grain...Midway has them.

I've shot the Nosler 168's you ordered...so far they are the most accurate bullet I've tried in my SPS Tactical.

 

[MCMXI]

Ridgerunner665, I've never shot a 175gr bullet out of my .308 but I sure would like to. When I bought the rifle about 10 years ago it came with the Remington factory 1:12 twist so 168gr was supposed to be the way to go but I remember trying 180gr SMK HPBT bullets for the heck of it ... didn't work as well if I remember correctly. I chose a 1:10 twist for the new Krieger barrel so it'd probably like the 175gr bullet. The SPS line has a 1:10 twist rate too right? So far, the 168gr has proven to be very accurate in both 1:10 and 1:12 barrels for me but I'll be ordering some of those 175gr Nosler bullets I'm sure. I do have some 190gr bullets (SMK HPBT) but I got those for the 300 Win Mag and 300 WSM. So many choices .... so little time.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

No...the SPS Tacticals are 1 in 12" twist.

But when I rebarrel mine in a few months I'm going to put a 1 in 10" Shilen on it. (but I'm gonna keep it at 20 inches...handy lil booger)

1 in 12 will stabilize the 175's just fine in my experience...but I have always (mostly) shot the 168's too (but NEVER Sierras 168's)...lots of people think ALL 168's are trash, but its only the Sierras, they were designed for 300 meter competitions and they have a slightly steeper boattail than others. That creates more drag than it relieves past 300 yards.

 

[MCMXI]

Ridgerunner665, so how about a 190gr out of a .308 barrel? I see that Hodgdon lists loads for that bullet but I'm not sure as to how it would perform out of a 1:10 barrel ... velocity may be down 200 fps or so compared to a 168gr bullet.

 

[MCMXI]

I just weighed 15 "random" Hornady 75gr BTHP bullets from one of the boxes of 600 that I just received.

74.6
74.7
75.0
74.9
74.9
74.9
74.9
74.9
75.0
75.0
74.9
74.8
74.8
75.0
74.6

Again, not bad ... so I decided to weigh 15 "random" Sierra MatchKing 77gr HPBT "moly" bullets ...

76.9
77.0
76.9
76.9
76.9
77.0
76.9
77.0
77.0
77.0
77.0
77.0
77.0
77.0
77.0

Now THAT'S impressive!! Hmmm .... so it's looks like the Sierra bullets don't need to be sorted by weight but how about the Hornady bullets? I have no idea if the SD of the Hornady bullets will get lost in the "noise" or if it's significant. Well, I have 1200 of them to form an opinion.

 

[Tang419]

I consider the Sierra's some of the cheaper plinking bullets to buy. $31 for 100, 200gr Gamekings, vs $30 for 50 Paritions, or $27 for 50 Accubonds of the same weight. I consider Swift's to be high priced, $51-$55 for 50 bullets.

Unless Im over looking something, Hornady seems to be the only bullets that cost less than Sierras.

 

[MCMXI]

There are quite a few cheaper brands compared to Sierra and the bullets that you mentioned are hunting bullets right, which typically cost more than target type bullets. How does the cost of the bullets you mentioned compare to the cost of Sierra GameKings?

 

[Matt-J2]

Umm...GameKings are the first thing he listed.


I dunno, but it looks to me like the Hornady A-Max(155gr BT) are cheaper, but not by a lot, and that's against the Sierra MatchKing, where the Sierra GameKing is cheaper even than the Hornady, though it goes back to Hornady for their basic bullet by a few bucks. It goes round and round.


Simply put, try some other bullets first. Seriously, if they don't shoot better for you, then you know why Sierras cost more. If one of the other brands shoot better, then stop being upset at Sierra and start being wildly excited about finding a better shooting bullet at a lower price. As it stands right now you have no idea if the competition measures up in your gun(the only place that matters), yet you're already trying to claim victory for someone else based on price point and second or third hand info.
It's loot, then pillage. Or in this case, find out before you shout out.

What would be really interesting to see is this subject brought back up at a later date with some real comparisons with your rifle. Test several bullets and see what really is best. Include some real data, unlike the testimonials you shared earlier in thread. Multiple and longer ranges, group sizes, groups of more than 3 rounds, weather conditions, the works. I bet you get a crowd of admirers with a thread like that, not people who want to pick apart every little thing.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

I have not fooled with the 190's much...but the 208 AMAX shoots pretty good moly'd out of a 1 in 12".

I just asked Bryan Litz (Bergers ballistician) about recommended twist rates for their bullets...he says that for their bullets the "minimum" twist for a 168 Match BT is 1 in 13.1" and for the 175 match BT (not VLD's in my case) the "minimum" twist is 1 in 13.4"...the 168 is best at a slightly faster twist....but both twist are slower than the generally accepted 1 in 12 for the 168 and 1 in 11.2" for the 175.

And his tests are done by actually firing the bullets...not computer generated.

EDITED TO ADD: The minimum twist for the 190 grain VLD is 1 in 12.

 

[Tang419]

Ridgerunner, I have considered giving the Bergers a go. Midway has the 210gr VLD on sale right now, so it is tempting. I have also gave some hard looks at that 208 A-Max, which has a BC as good as Berger.

On the subject of what a gun likes, my .300 WM loves the 200gr Sierras and 180gr Hornady Interlocks, but doesnt care for Noslers or Speer. The Gameking seems to be known as a fragile bullet in some places, but also seems to be very effective with others. I cant speak for them on that respect as I didnt use them on game this season, but they do shoot very well.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

Bryan says the 208 AMAX is THE most efficient 308 caliber bullet he has ever tested...its a caliber to weight ratio thing.

He tested that bullet...and found it to have a VERY low drag profile and a BC of .633

Bryan has been on a few forums lately... LongRangeHunting.com and Snipers Hide.

Here is a good 9 pages to read (Bryan is bsl135)... http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f19/changed-berger-b-c-36293/

Here is a thread on "the Hide"... http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ub...&Main=78287&Words=Litz&Search=true#Post854314 (post #6 is talking about the 208 AMAX)

 

[MCMXI]

Umm...GameKings are the first thing he listed.

Sorry about that ...

Matt-J2, I see your point. I posted the weights of some bullets from Sierra and Hornady as the first step in the reporting process and someone might find this information useful if they're thinking of buying those specific bullets. It is my intention to compare Nosler, Hornady and Sierra bullets that I have (and have ordered) for my own interest but I'll certainly report back if any useful data comes out of that.

Ridgerunner665, thanks for the links and for sharing information from Bryan Litz ... good to know particularly re the 208gr A-MAX from Hornady. Hornady gives the BC for that bullet as 0.648 and the SD as 0.313. Either way I'm looking forward to working up loads for it.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

BTW...without moly or hbn, you're looking at 2,200 - 2,300 fps with the 210 VLD or the 208 AMAX.

Which will still fly a loooong ways before going subsonic...(probably 1,200 yards or so...just a guess off the to of my head)

 

[MCMXI]

Ridgerunner665, I've looked in all four of my reloading manuals and searched the internet (including Hornday's web site) for load data for the 208gr A-MAX and from what I can gather, load data for the 220gr RN or HPBT bullet is ok to use since there doesn't appear to be any published 208gr data. That's the safer way of approaching this rather than using 200gr load data. I use Reloder 22 in the .300 WM (and .300 WSM) and the load ranges for the 220gr bullets are as follows:

Sierra 50th Edition - 24" barrel, 1:10 twist
59.5gr (2400fps) to 69.0gr (2750fps)

Lyman 49th Edition - 24" barrel, 1:10 twist
63.4gr (2508fps) to 70.5gr (2696fps)

Using the low and high loads from Lyman and Hornady's ballistic calculator I get 1413fps and 1545fps respectively at 1000 yards. I have a 26" barrel so I may get a few more fps but will chronograph the "best" load once I've found it. I use the OCW method and will start with 65.0gr, 66.0gr, 67.0gr, 68.0gr, 69.0gr and 70.0gr checking for "signs" of excessive pressure as I work my way up.

I've often wondered if it's safe to interpolate load data if nothing else is available. For example, Lyman's 49th Edition has the following data for the 200gr HPBT and RL22 (RX22).

65.0gr (2489fps) to 74.5gr (2878fps)

If you interpolate between the min/max loads for the 200gr and 220gr bullets listed by Lyman you get the following min/max values for a 208gr bullet ...

64.4gr (2497fps) to 72.9gr (2805fps)

... hmmm.

 

[Tang419]

I would email Berger and ask for data for their 210gr VLD.

Also, my brother has the latest Hornady manual, I'll ask gim to get the data in the morning. But for the .338 Win Mag (yes I know you arent reloading for a .338), Nosler lists the 200 and 210gr in the same section.

 

[MCMXI]

Tang419, that would be a HUGE help. I looked at Hornady's web site hoping to find load data but no luck ... I guess it's only the powder makers that supply load data for free. Alliant's load data is next to useless for me since they don't list the bullets that I shoot in the calibers that I shoot them but I do like their powder. I have "The Complete Reloading Manual" books for .223 Rem and .308 Win which I like since they have data for a huge range of bullets and powders from all different manufacturers. I'll order one for the .300WM and .300WSM.

Thanks and my apologies for screwing up on your earlier post ... crackberry in bed = bad!!



P.S. I just sent an email to Berger asking for load data for the 210gr Match VLD. Thanks for the tip.