What is the classic American rifle other than the Model 70

[Germster]

I agree. In about 1952, I remember my dad looking at an ad in "True" magazine about the Savage 99 in 300 Savage. He said that he'd like to have one. Today people don't recall how popular lever action guns were in the last half of the 19th Century and the first half of the 20th.

The Winchester Model 70 had stiff competition from the lever actions rifles of the day, some, other Winchesters, such as the Model 71 which was considered a real whiz bang when it came out. It is still considered an adaquate big bear rifle. When Teddy Roosevelt went to Africa in 1910 he carried a customized 03 Springfield, but did much of his hunting with his "lion medicine" rifle, the lever action Model 95 in .405.

There are still some things that, IMO, lever rifles do best. They are easy to carry and quick to bring to shoulder. They are plenty accurate for other than extra long range hunting. One of the best is the old Savage 99 and in .300 Savage or .308 it just about all of the rifle that most hunters will ever need.

 

[OregonJohnny]

I'm a little embarrassed, but I didn't really know what a "Model 70" was off the top of my head, so I had to Google it. I assumed it was a bolt-action rifle of some kind, and was pretty sure it was a Winchester, but it certainly didn't bring an instant image to my mind.

However, these do:

Winchester 94
M1 Garand
M14
M16/M4/AR-15
Marlin 1895
Browning B.A.R.

 

[Ole Humpback]

You boltgun nuts make me chuckle. Let's not pretend for one second like the bolt action is state of the art. Or that the AR platform is not nearing 60yrs old.

Are you so blinded by your love of lever guns as to be completely ignorant of the truth?

Todays "Magnum length" actions are about 5" at most in length, most Long Actions are just at or under 4" in length, and Short Actions are well under 3" in length. Taking into account that the bolt lift is between 60 & 90 degrees of rotation, were talking about at most a 6.5" ROM (13" to cycle the action) for Magnums, 5" (10" to cycle the action) for Long actions, and 4" (8" or less to cycle) or less for a Short Action.

The shortest throw for a lever gun is right at 7" and at most is 9" which means to cycle the action, you're moving between 14" & 18". Assuming a competent shooter that is equally proficient with both arms, the gun with the shortest range of motion will result in a faster & more accurate fire. The less time you have to spend manipulating the action, the more time you can spend on aiming & firing accurate shots.

Unless the lever guns have somehow manipulated the laws of physics to include space-time warps for action cycling, its a physical impossibility to cycle a lever gun faster than a bolt. The SMLE is proof positive of how a bolt gun will allow a trained shooter to fire more rounds faster. If one were to attempt a 30rds into a target at 300yds from a lever gun in the prone position in one minute the following obstacles will have to be overcome:

The lever will hit the ground while cycling the action.
The magazine is loaded one at a time. Its not loaded by charger clips or a new DBM.

The only time in the history of lever guns where a lever gun provided faster & more accurate fire than its competitor was the Civil War and that is only do to the fact that it fired a self contained metallic cartridge and the gun held 15 shots in the magazine at a time when everyone else was using a muzzleloading firearm. The metallic cartridge firing breech loaders of the 1870's could darn near keep pace with the Henry and fired far more powerful rounds during their day (45-70) than the 44 Rimfire.

I love lever guns for hunting, but if it comes to rate of fire or accuracy for life or death use, I'll be grabbing up an old SMLE or AR platform rifle.

 

[MacTech]

Even though I'm a Marlin guy, I'd say the Winchester '94 is the gun many will picture when they think of the "classic" American rifle

As far as the current discussion goes about AR Vs. Lever <yawn>, let me just say this....

my 9 year old nephew can shoot any of my guns whenever he wants to, he just has to ask, he has the following options for actions;

Lever action
Bolt action
Break-barrel
Semiauto
Revolver

He's a child of the "New Sesame Street" (the one with the wrong-sounding Muppets, RIP Jim Henson, you are missed...) and could care less either way about the cowboy thing, and as a testament to his intelligence, he *hates* all the current popular music and culture, like that Bieber idiot and all the other "instant music, just add water" crap, he loves british humour, Doctor Who, and anything cerebral, heck, he's been known to find logical flaws in Mythbusters episodes that feature firearms, points out violations of Cooper's Four Rules in TV and movies, complains about how inaccurate guns are portrayed in entertainment "they never run out of ammo, never reload, and the guns are so *quiet* on TV/movies.....

Smart kid....

Anyway, when we go out shooting, what gun does he invariably want to use?

90% of the time, my Marlin 39a Lever if he just wants to have *fun*, the other 10% when he wants to really go for maximum accuracy, he will choose my scoped CZ-452 Trainer and try to put all the bullets through the same hole, and then there are those times he just wants to let loose with my single shot 20 gauge and my FunShell training shells.....

He just seems to show no interest in my semiautos, and it's not due to me not letting him use them, he just doesn't seem interested in them, to be fair, I don't have an AR in the collection, but I wouldn't mind owning one, after all, my levers and my SKS need company, and an AR would be a welcome addition to the family

I guess you could say that we like *all* guns here in my immediate and extended family, but there's something indefinable about a good levergun, to me and to him, they just feel......right, they feel more....alive somehow, I can't explain it in words, but just shouldering a levergun feels far more comfortable and natural than any of my other guns

...plus there's that whole traditional/historic/retro thing going, they just seem...."friendlier" than the equivalent semiauto

so, to sum up, my two choices for classic American rifle?
Winchester '94 (.30-30)
Marlin 39A (.22)

 

[Tirod]

Since when is the Mod 70 more popular than the Win 94? Which has been on the market longer, and what caliber consistently ranks in the top Ten sold every year for nearly a century?

It's more likely the other rifle that American's find next most popular is the Rem 700 - give someone the choice of it or a POST 64 M70 and see what they pick. The Army used 700 actions to spec sniper rifles, not the 70.

The Mauser sporter would give the 70 a run for it's money. Let's not assume some gunwriters' cliquish choice is the actual "Most popular gun" when the real answer is right there in the sales figures.

 

[bushmaster1313]

When it comes to people overpaying for bolt procuction hunting rifles it seems the pre-64 Model 70 has the others beat.

 

[USSR]

...give someone the choice of it or a POST 64 M70 and see what they pick.

Personally, I'll take the post '64 every time. Both are pushfeeds, and the M70 has a more rigid receiver, a better extractor and a much better trigger.

The Army used 700 actions to spec sniper rifles, not the 70.

True, but only Remington actively sought out the sniper rifle contract.

Don

 

[CB900F]

Fella's;

As I read through the thread, I noted one gun that's not been mentioned. As far as I'm concerned there's no question that it's a classic and there's a fair bit of proof right here on THR. Just take a look at the Marlin model 39 and check out the club thread. That thread started in March of 2007, now runs to 144 pages and over 3580 posts. I wouldn't be surprised to find out it's the single longest running, most active thread on the site.

And it's a lever action. Hmmmmm, I wonder if that little factoid will get into somebody's shorts?

As to what's number one, two, or three, I don't care.

900F

 

[LongTimeGone]

OT for CB900F-
I just wanted to respond to your screen name. I rode a 1976 CB750F as my only transportation for quite a few years back in the day. My 1st full size bike. Loved it.

 

[CraigC]

Todays "Magnum length" actions are about 5" at most in length, most Long Actions are just at or under 4" in length, and Short Actions are well under 3" in length. Taking into account that the bolt lift is between 60 & 90 degrees of rotation, were talking about at most a 6.5" ROM (13" to cycle the action) for Magnums, 5" (10" to cycle the action) for Long actions, and 4" (8" or less to cycle) or less for a Short Action.

The shortest throw for a lever gun is right at 7" and at most is 9" which means to cycle the action, you're moving between 14" & 18". Assuming a competent shooter that is equally proficient with both arms, the gun with the shortest range of motion will result in a faster & more accurate fire. The less time you have to spend manipulating the action, the more time you can spend on aiming & firing accurate shots.

You guys crack me up. Let's put on our thinking caps for a minute or two.

Think about it, when your right hand is at the firing position on a levergun, it is also in position to cycle the action. When you complete the upstroke of the lever, you are back into firing position. Your hand is on the grip area and your trigger finger will come to rest on the trigger. With a boltgun, when your hand is in firing position, it is NOT in position to cycle the action. No, you must take your entire hand off the pistol grip, move it upwards to engage the bolt handle. When you close the action, you must then place your hand back onto the pistol grip and find the trigger. These are all minute differences and that very little time but this is a sport of fine details and incremental differences. Fact remains that it takes time.

On a levergun, the action also cycles straight down and straight up. No changes in direction, no sliding directly back towards your face. It is far and away accomplished much more quickly than a boltgun, which requires three changes in direction, versus one for the lever.

As far as shooting prone, try it. I've never had a problem shooting a levergun prone. Even the big Winchester 1895 that has such a large lever and long stroke. It does not protrude as far as the 30gr magazine on an AR. However, in the deer woods where the lever is most at home, how often do you have to shoot from prone? Ever???

Sorry fellas, I concede that bolts tend to be 'slightly' more accurate (another aspect blown out of proportion by bolt fanciers) but you can't have your cake and eat it too.

The metallic cartridge firing breech loaders of the 1870's could darn near keep pace with the Henry

Hardly.

 

[Justin]

You know what? That's enough. This thread has been nothing more than five pages of heated bickering over a topic that should have been a friendly discussion.