What is the wetting rationale for BP manufacturing?

[gun'sRgood]

I've been making BP for years and I seem to have forgotten why this step is important. After milling I wet the powder to damp then knead it and then screen it. I know alcohol can be used here but I use water. I believe the kneading is to homogenize the damp content but I don't know why. I don't puck unless the stuff is for a pistol or rifle. That and 4# per episode of manufacturing takes more pucking presses than I've made. But the water concept is something I like to be refreshed on. I screen for cannon powder. At 6oz a shot, it goes pretty fast. So does the powder. Thx

 

[AK Hunter]

You have to keep it wet in the final milling process to keep it from accidental ignition.

 

[noelf2]

Wetting dissolves the KNO3 a bit and helps it to really infuse the charcoal. Makes a faster and more consistent burn.

 

[gun'sRgood]

Wetting dissolves the KNO3 a bit and helps it to really infuse the charcoal. Makes a faster and more consistent burn.

Yeah, I think your spot on. I seem to recall that too much water and you get the opposite effect. And if this old noggin recalls, once you leach out the KNO3 it's not going back without drying and re-milling. It's the kneading that bugs. When I started this some 15-20 years? ago, my hands did not mind in the least. Now with the arthritis in both hands this is going to suck. I'm trying to think of a mechanical method. I make puck press molds that are about 3" in diameter. I'm wondering if I make a cylinder of 6"? 10"? and press this with a fair amount of pressure if it would drive the water in. I think I'll try that next time. Right now I'm up against a clock to get this done. A friend has stage 4 "C" and has requested that I take him cannon shooting one more time. I'd just hate myself If I don't get to fulfill his request.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

One old method that I read, the "wet" for the small cottage produced black powder used stale, concentrated, human urine.

LD

 

[edwardware]

. . . but I don't know why.

Well, I'd tell you to try skipping water to find out, but that'd be mean.

It's to prevent rapid exothermic disassembly of your mill and environs, generally including the operator.

You probably also benefit from improved particle mobility due to lubrication, but it's mostly to prevent loud noises.

 

[gun'sRgood]

Well, I'd tell you to try skipping water to find out, but that'd be mean.

It's to prevent rapid exothermic disassembly of your mill and environs, generally including the operator.

You probably also benefit from improved particle mobility due to lubrication, but it's mostly to prevent loud noises.

Odd remark, cute, but odd. I might give your idea a try. I never tried to puck dry, freshly milled BP. Thoughts are that it won't work. But that would be arrogant and ignorant. I also seem to recall that a non-polar solution can be used to drive the KNO3. That's interesting. Most salts as I recall have an impoverished reaction to non-polar agents. Worth a try though. Thanks for the thoughts.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Historically, Blackpowder, it was called gunpowder at the time, was simply made by mixing the three components, Saltpeter (potassium nitrate), charcoal, and sulfur together in a dry state, and not wetted. In those days armies traveled long distance over primitive, rutted roads with the the powder transported in large kegs. It was discovered that the vibration caused by traveling long distances over rutted roads would cause the three components to settle out and not stay mixed in their original proportions. This affected the strength of the powder. Toward the end of the 14th Century (late 1300s) it was discovered that by mixing the three components together with water a paste could be formed. Often called a 'cake'. This cake could then be ground to form grains and the grains could be sorted by size using different sized screens. This process, called corning, resulted in the three components being mixed together in a mechanical, not chemical, mixture that would not separate from vibration. This process made the powder more stable, it could be transported long distances and keep the same potency it had when first corned.

It should be noted that the corning process was done with the cake in a dry state, not wet. A wet material cannot be ground to form kernels and grains. If foreign elements were accidentally introduced when the cake was being corned, it was possible for the powder mill to blow up. Many did.

 

[Jim Watson]

One old method that I read, the "wet" for the small cottage produced black powder used stale, concentrated, human urine.

LD

One wants the urine of a wine-drinking monk for best powder quality.

 

[gun'sRgood]

One wants the urine of a wine-drinking monk for best powder quality.

Funny as heck. Years ago I had a hankering to see if I could make BP with only what I could find within a few miles of my house. For nitrate, and this was and still is disgusting, I had several - male - friends eat as much nitrate treated pork as I could BBQ for them. Saved the above mentioned fluid, albeit beer was served, dried contents. This was added to the Sulphur I had taken from some pyrite and charcoal from a glob willow. This kinda, sorta worked. With some refining I think I could shoot with it. But the process was in need of another source of nitrate. Even though my buddies thought the free beer and BBQ was a fine way to become a post apocalyptic survivalist.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Again

A major natural source of potassium nitrate in the past was the deposits crystallizing from cave walls and the accumulations of bat guano in caves. Extraction was accomplished by immersing the guano in water for a day, filtering, and harvesting the crystals in the filtered water.

The "French Method" was adopted a few years before the French Revolution. Niter-beds were prepared by mixing manure with either mortar or wood ashes, common earth and organic materials such as straw to give porosity to a compost pile typically 4 feet high, 6 feet wide, and 15 feet long. The heap was usually under a cover from the rain, kept moist with urine, turned often to accelerate the decomposition, then finally leached with water after approximately one year, to remove the soluble calcium nitrate which was then converted to potassium nitrate by filtering through potash. In 1862 LeCont described this method in detail for increasing Saltpeter production in the Confederacy.

So clearly, the nitrogen in manure and urine used to be vital to the creation of Saltpeter.

 

[gun'sRgood]

Howdy Again

A major natural source of potassium nitrate in the past was the deposits crystallizing from cave walls and the accumulations of bat guano in caves. Extraction was accomplished by immersing the guano in water for a day, filtering, and harvesting the crystals in the filtered water.

The "French Method" was adopted a few years before the French Revolution. Niter-beds were prepared by mixing manure with either mortar or wood ashes, common earth and organic materials such as straw to give porosity to a compost pile typically 4 feet high, 6 feet wide, and 15 feet long. The heap was usually under a cover from the rain, kept moist with urine, turned often to accelerate the decomposition, then finally leached with water after approximately one year, to remove the soluble calcium nitrate which was then converted to potassium nitrate by filtering through potash. In 1862 LeCont described this method in detail for increasing Saltpeter production in the Confederacy.

So clearly, the nitrogen in manure and urine used to be vital to the creation of Saltpeter.

Spot on! I wanted to try the bat droppings. There are caves in NM where gathering could have been done. But the limitation on the experiment was to make BP with a mile or so from home. I'm sure the bat's, sans the C-19, would have produced a much better bang! The ammonia present was also a consideration. Nasty stuff. Are you a home BP mnfg. guy?

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Are you a home BP mnfg. guy?

Nope. I would not dream of trying to make my own Black Powder. I do not own any land to try doing it outside and I sure won't do it in the house.. I am completely happy buying my Black Powder.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

One wants the urine of a wine-drinking monk for best powder quality.

Well that explains why English gunpowder was so poor when first made.

The monks in Britain drank ale.

In fact the monks sent a firkin of the stuff to Rome, as they had adopted the practice of drinking a flagon of strong ale three times a day during Lent as the only nourishment. (a flagon 3x = just under a gallon) The Pope and several of the Cardinals tasted the ale, and as it was soooo bitter compared to the wine that they were used to, the Pope blessed the use of the ale as a Lenten beverage. (And rumor has it that The Pope thought the monks in Britain rather "hard core" for such a bitter drink.)

Ladies and Gentlemen, pardon the interruption. We now return you to the making of black powder.....,

LD

 

[gun'sRgood]

Well that explains why English gunpowder was so poor when first made.

The monks in Britain drank ale.

In fact the monks sent a firkin of the stuff to Rome, as they had adopted the practice of drinking a flagon of strong ale three times a day during Lent as the only nourishment. (a flagon 3x = just under a gallon) The Pope and several of the Cardinals tasted the ale, and as it was soooo bitter compared to the wine that they were used to, the Pope blessed the use of the ale as a Lenten beverage. (And rumor has it that The Pope thought the monks in Britain rather "hard core" for such a bitter drink.)

Ladies and Gentlemen, pardon the interruption. We now return you to the making of black powder.....,

LD

Thx. Fun history. For BP's historical moment I bring you..... The ingredients and amounts for making BP were well known by most. It was how to make good charcoal that was the best kept secrete. I'm a Willow fan. Some 54 species and any Willow I've tried works wonders. So i just started to grow my own. Pretty neat stuff. Take a branch and stick it in the ground. Water and wait. Willow! They have machines that shoot about a 10" strip of willow into the ground for planting rows of the stuff.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

The ingredients and amounts for making BP were well known by most. It was how to make good charcoal that was the best kept secrete. I'm a Willow fan. .

You're not the only one. I've found sources that the British Army and the Royal Navy both wanted their gunpowder made using white willow. I'm also told that the German company that makes BP still uses willow.

LD

 

[gun'sRgood]

You're not the only one. I've found sources that the British Army and the Royal Navy both wanted their gunpowder made using white willow. I'm also told that the German company that makes BP still uses willow.

LD

You Da Man! Thx!