What is your personal take on Copper Fouling?

[CharlieDeltaJuliet]

I used to clean firearms religiously after shooting. I always removed ALL the copper fouling from them. Well I ran across a long range shooter (Todd Hodnett) that preaches the exact opposite. He convinced me to give his method a try and I did. He claimed that the copper was not hurting accuracy, but helping it. He said to clean the carbon out but not copper. While I knew that cabon is what harms the barrels not copper. He teaches long range shooting, and is probably one of the best in the world. He said that the copper acts like a bearing. It also fills the pits and imperfections in the barrels.

He took his own 1/4 MOA rifle and cleaned all of the copper out and it shot over 1.5-2.0 MOA for the first dozen or more shots. I am not asking for a heated debate, but I want to know what everyone's take on it is.
I tried his method and to my suprise it was exactly as he said. It took my rifle a few shots to settle back in and start shooting its normal patterns. I know this is a "hot topic" or "voodoo" subject but I want to hear about everyones firearm cleaning routines.. Thanks guys

 

[CharlieDeltaJuliet]

I do need to add that his theory is only if the copper starts causing issues with accuracy, does he clean it completely out. Does anyone else do this?

 

[LeonCarr]

I have pretty much switched to the abrasive type bore cleaners like JB Bore Cleaner and Remington 40-X, because it takes much less effort to remove powder and copper fouling.

A lot of folks claim it will ruin your barrel, destroy your rifling, why do you want to use lapping compound in your barrel, blah blah blah. IME when you use the conventional liquid type cleaners you are running many many patches and many many strokes of the cleaning rod to get the barrel clean. I believe the cleaning rod is what does the damage to the barrel. I use JB or 40-X per the instructions and after about 20 strokes the barrel is completely clean, as in shine a flashlight in the muzzle and see no copper streaks clean.

My personal take on copper is it should be removed periodically, but it does not have to be removed every time you shoot. I personally have found no point of impact change using JB or 40-X. YMMV, but I think that when using the liquid solvent type cleaners the point of impact change/barrel having to "settle down" could be from the bullet "sliding" on the lubricant/solvent residue left in the barrel, not the copper fouling.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

 

[CharlieDeltaJuliet]

I use JB bore cleaner too. I always have great results with it. But I also use a foaming lubicate and protectant when I strip the copper out. This might be the change of impact I get. I now clean my rifles every trip out shooting, but only remove copper after every 300 or more rounds. It seems to be a good routine for me. I still so a rigid break in period of shoot once , clean, and so on for atleast the first 10 rounds and then every 10 after that for the first 100. I guess its all personal preferance.

 

[rajb123]

..exactly how do you remove only the carbon and not the cooper? ...so you don't use a liquid copper solvent and, therefore, the copper stays in the bore?

Hmmm.

 

[CharlieDeltaJuliet]

No i dont use JB or Hoppes, etc everytime. I use Slip 2000, for carbon. It leaves the copper streaks in the barrel. I was talking about when I do clean the copper. Alot of times now I use a tiny amount of slip 2000, oil , and a bore snake to clean them. The Slip 2000 will remove copper, but you have to use alot more of it. It is far less aggressive. I mainly mean I am not using JB or Hoppes or other fouling cleaners and spending an hour cleaning the fouling out of the barrel. Sorry bout the confusion. I see how the way I had put it, that it wasn't clear, especially about the JB's and other cleaners.

 

[MEHavey]

KG-1 to get the overlying powder fouling out.
Kg-12 then gets (really gets) the underlying copper.

http://www.midwayusa.com/find?userSearchQuery=kg-1
http://www.midwayusa.com/find?userSearchQuery=kg-12

 

[CharlieDeltaJuliet]

Awesome, I will have to order some KG-1, thanks for the link.

 

[Canuck-IL]

I use KG 1 (carbon remover) or Ed's Red after each use. Every 400 - 500 rounds I follow that with KGs copper remover - I've found it as effective as Sweet's and, at least in theory, less likely to cause damage to the bore or my lungs - doesn't contain ammonia but it still smells as if it does.

Once I'm done with the carbon/copper at the 500 round mark, I use J&B - it's often amazing what that drags out of a "clean" barrel! Clean up the J&B with Ed's Red to leave a little ATF protection in the bore and it's good until the next use.

I shove the J&B thru on jags but do most of the carbon/copper with pull-throughs and patches.
/Bryan

 

[claiborne]

I detest using using cleaning rods because I have scratched a barrel before. I detest all the fancy ammonia based cleaners because they peel the skin off my fingers and smell bad.
Rem Oil spray and bore snakes, BINGO! fast and efficient, gets things clean enough for me. I never have to woory about "fouling" a barrel after a really good cleaning anymore. The accuracy of my rifles is more consitent as well.

 

[Liberation]

Uhhh... Ridiculous?

If copper gets into the rifling of course its going to hurt accuracy.

 

[rcmodel]

Copper fouling is bad!
Mmmkay!

Of course a squeeky clean barrel will shoot to a different POI until it gets all the oil and solvent out of it.

But a copper fouled barrel won't shoot at all.

I have seen more then one 7" - 8" grouping rifle turn into a 7/8" grouping rifle just by cleaning all the copper out of the rifling.

rc

 

[CharlieDeltaJuliet]

I have had 300 rounds worth of copper in mine and it shot as sweet as it did with 40 down the tube. Its just like using coated bullets, they give a bearing surface and even out the metal's texture. I wont go extreme amounts of shooting without cleaning the fouling. I ALWAYS run a clean cloth plunger and patch through after using the any solvents. I try to get the barrel as dry as I can before I shoot. But there is more of a difference in mine after removing the fouling than there is at a cold bore shot. It takes at least a dozen or so shots before the group tightens back up to what is normal.

 

[icanthitabarn]

My personal experience with copper is non-existent. I don't ever get any blue to show when using the chemicals. I bought them because I thought I was missing something.

 

[Canuck-IL]

My personal experience with copper is non-existent. I don't ever get any blue to show when using the chemicals.

I need to arrange to have you purchase my next barre !!

More seriously, I've had a couple (1 Krieger and a Shilen) that never seemed to copper foul. Most however do give up some copper residue, especially early in their lifetime - - and old milsurp barrels can be an almost unending parade of various colors of gunk patching out.

/B

 

[TurtlePhish]

and old milsurp barrels can be an almost unending parade of various colors of gunk patching out.

I let some Hoppes sit in my Mosin barrel and the patch looked like I colored it teal with a Sharpie...

Getting a ton of copper out of my milsurp barrels definitely got them shooting better. Those and my .17HMR are the only ones I really shoot for groups, and my .17HMR only powder fouls.

 

[murf]

depends.

a match barrel should shoot best with no copper.

a pitted barrel (like my 03 springfield) may shoot best with a layer of copper filling in the pits.

an overbore cartridge (like my 264 win mag) needs the copper removed after ten shots for best accuracy.

depends.

murf

 

[icanthitabarn]

Just last week, I came up with a sighting system for a 1914 SMLE. I have had it for 35 yrs, but only fired a box or so as I tried a new homemade sight. So I finally finish up after the latest attempt which is awesome but out of adjustment . I get out the Sweets and try it for the first time and no blue at all is seen.

 

[CharlieDeltaJuliet]

Well it is my experience too, that a rifle can produce far less as it wears. My theory was just that pits or imperfections that caught the copper, were basically worn down over many many rounds.

 

[gbeecher]

Regular maintenance

I think gun cleaning is like oil changes in an automobile - its something you need to do regularly, but you can also do it as often as you like, regardless if it really needs to be done or not. I do a simple cleaning after each shooting session. I clean the bore and chamber, wipe down the bolt and receiver and all exterior surfaces. I don't disassemble the bolt, nor do I take apart the rifle, magazine etc. Of course it helps that I own a Mosin-Nagant 1891/30. The rifle is so simple it requires little cleaning or maintenance at all.

 

[T.R.]

I've found that Marlin's micro-groove rifling in 30-30 produces less accurasy after about 10 shots. A good cleaning including removing copper is very helpful.

TR

 

[OldTex]

Like the OP, I always cleaned my bores thoroughly after each use, with the exception of my deer rifle. I would fire a few rounds through it just before the season opened and leave it 'dirty' till the season was over. My thinking was that I wanted to avoid the different POI you get when shooting a barrel that is coated in oil or solvent residue.

Last year I got my first true 'precision' rifle, a GAP Crusader, and I now would agree with what Todd Hodnett said - an opinion I've learned is shared by most any long-range competitive shooter BTW. I've learned from my own experience with the Crusader that it does take a few rounds for the gun to 'settle down' and start shooting bugholes after it's been thoroughly cleaned - in my case usually 7-10 rounds. At some point the fouling does get so bad that accuracy starts to fall off, but in the GAP that point is usually after more than 60-80 rounds depending on how hot my rounds are and what bullets I'm loading. I can't say whether this is true of every gun I own because I haven't tested them all for this, but it's darn sure true about the Bartlein barrel in the GAP and it's also true of the heavy varmint barrel in my .308 Savage 10 FP.

There is one caveat to go with this - when I change powders I will clean the barrel. Different powders, especially ball vs stick, leave residues that don't like each other and accuracy falls off right away.

I have never tried using a powder solvent vs a copper solvent. My usual solvent (Shooter's Choice) cleans both.

 

[CharlieDeltaJuliet]

When I met Mr.Hodnett, he wasn't as well know to long range shooters. He now talks about all of this stuff in a series of videos, Magpul: The Art of Precision Shooting. He sticks to his stuff and proves results in these. I purchased these when I heard who was the instructor in the videos. He is where I got my "unorthadox" grip from. I do have to give credit, his ways have greatly helped me hit targets beyond the average range. I plan on sticking to my routine, but wanted to know what results and what others do as far as routine cleaning.

 

[kcshooter]

I'll take Todd Hadnett's advice and instruction any day for technique. I've learned a lot from what he teaches, and his techniques have improved my shooting skills.

However, I don't think this bit of advice is logical or much more than another one of those shooting myths that have no real foundation in anything that has been proved to be factual.

Especially when I've seen guns that a guy has brought me stating that it won't group, and I've "fixed" it just by giving it a good thorough cleaning.


Not only do I clean ALL the fouling from my barrels, but before I shoot my cold bore shots at the range, I run a patch of 90% isopropyl alcohol down the bore to make sure the surface isn't affected by oil and solvents left over from the last time I cleaned it. I usually shoot 5-10 rounds then switch guns to allow it to cool. I don't find any size difference in my first group over my 10th group.