What kind of accuracy from DPMS 308L?

[biggameballs]

I'm considering purchasing a semi auto for big game hunting. It will either be a DPMS 308L or a Browning BAR. I dont want anything much over 8lbs so that seems to limit my AR choices to the DPMS 308L or 338L. I know the AR's with heavy barrels can easily shoot sub MOA at 100 yards but what kind of accuracy is the 308L with lightweight receiver and contour barrel producing with premium hunting ammo?

If it cant consistantly shoot atleast 1.5" then I might as well just buy the Browning BAR.

 

[Z-Michigan]

Not exactly the L, but my 308B (18" bull barrel) got .5" at 50 yards and 1.2" at 100 yards on its second range trip with cheap FMJ ammo, a 4x scope and no special skills on my part. Many report getting sub-MOA with the free floated barrel models. I haven't shot the 308L model but given that it also has a free-floated barrel, I expect that 1.5" at 100 yards (roughly 1.5 MOA) should be easily achievable with a decent scope and appropriate ammo.

Expect a bit of a break-in period with the DPMS 308 rifles. Nothing severe, but don't expect perfect reliability from shot one.

 

[biggameballs]

Is there any other AR company that makes one taylored to hunting? Is there extensive cleaning needed to keep them in working order. I'm kind of new to the AR thing.

 

[Jackal1]

Remington makes the R-25 which is a .308 caliber AR-15 designed exactly for hunting. Ignore their listed MSRP price and look for a new or lightly used one at a local gun store for less cost.

http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/centerfire/model-r-25/model-r-25-rifle.aspx

 

[Zerodefect]

Is there any other AR company that makes one taylored to hunting? Is there extensive cleaning needed to keep them in working order. I'm kind of new to the AR thing.

The DPMS and Armalite .308's should be fine for hunting. If you really want to get carried away with acuracy you can look at the LMT's .308. The Larue is crazy accurate and another step up, but alot of $.

 

[Zane]

I have liked my 308L. I shoot 1 inch at 50 yards, but that is the best I have ever shot with any rifle. It is the lightest of the 308 series. The trigger is pretty good and single stage.

I have had essentially perfect reliability with mine and even used it for a couple three gun matches before I got a 308 AP4 upper. I have noticed that my groups were tighter with 168 gr ammo, when compared to 180 gr ammo. Using good ammo, if you can shoot 1.5 inches, the rifle will be able to also. The compensator does make it pretty loud, however.

 

[biggameballs]

I think I would try to order it without a muzzle break. 308 in an 8lb gun is not even getting close to my limits for recoil tolerance and I value my hearing. I also think they look ugly. I'm assuming the barrel is 18" without the break?

 

[Zane]

The 308L is 18 inches with the compensator built in. It is not removable without cutting the barrel and recrowning.

 

[Z-Michigan]

I would look at the LR-308T model with a 16" barrel and no brake. You could also consider the "B" model but it is heavy.

The Remington R25 is the same rifle with a different name on the side. I would get it if you can find it for less money, but not pay any more for it.

The Armalite AR-10 would be worth a look, but is heavier in 20" form. The 16" carbine version would be worth a look.

 

[biggameballs]

Lets add AR 15's chambered in 6.8 Remington SPC into the conversation. Looking for accuracy, quick handling, and basic with no extra rails, muzzle breaks, etc... I know there are tons of companies out there building these guns but I have no idea who is good and who isn't. I also assume I can "custom" order just about any rifle I want from most these manufactures if I dont like the barrel or some of the accessories.

 

[biggameballs]

Could someone with a lot of black gun experience please rank the AR companies in terms of accuracy, dependability, fit and finish, and bang for the buck. Also if you could let me know what you would spend your hard earned money on and why.

 

[Zerodefect]

I can't help with 6.8spcII too much anymore. I sold mine. The newer 70+gn OTM 5.56 ammo fills that role in my carbines and light SPR's.

Rainier Arms builds a great 6.8spcII. But your going to pay for the good stuff. They have 6.5 Grendel that might interest you as well. 6.5 can reach out there as well as .308 but is quite a weird round, usually I just jump up to a AR10 build or a LMT .308 for true long range stuff.
http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=1358

I haven't seen a better 6.8 than that one yet.



The quad rails are becoming a must have, I started with basic Ar's but wish I could have skipped that phase. I use Larue and DD rails with Magpul XTM
covers. I can't live without GS handstops, Larue quick release mounted lights and Bipods.


Overall my favorite AR brands:
BCM (5.56 only though.....)
Larue (OBR .308, awesome 1 mile shots, way sub moa $3000+)
Rainier Arms
LMT (Best bang for the buck .308@$2500)
Colt (for basic 6920's, great to start with, 5.56 only?)
Nove$ke

Those are my picks for more of a top end defensive rifle. For just plain hunting the DPMS should do fine. I avoid DPMS when Defense is an issue, not hunting or plinking where I can give a little.

Stag 6.8 Upper:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=22&t=382725

Ar Performance:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=22&t=798631

Other sweet .308's if you really want to get carried away:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=120&t=800993

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=120&t=762648

http://larueosr.com/

 

[biggameballs]

Let me clarify. I'm not a plinker or a range shooter at all and I'm not a tactical guy either. This gun will be used for one thing and one thing only. Hard core whitetail hunting. I want to pack an AR in the woods while looking as little like rambo as possible. The reason I'm looking at an AR in the first place is I'm under the impression that I can get all the pluses of a semi auto with bolt action accuracy. I've read to many stories about people with Browning BAR's not being able to hold 5 inch groups at 100 yards so I started looking AR. I want something fast handling for those real life hunting situations where anything can happen. This is probably a huge knee jerk reaction to missing a booner this year that was hauling ass by my stand.

 

[ChristopherG]

Sounds to me like you are the intended audience for the Remington R-25. I don't see them mentioned above; have you ruled them out for some reason?

In terms of accuracy, I would expect them to perform at a level practically identical to a similarly configured DPMS or Armalite--i.e., very good to outstanding accuracy.

 

[madcratebuilder]

How much weight do you want to carry? A 20 or 21 inch barrel can shoot as well as 1/2 moa but it's going to be heavy, 10-12 lbs scoped. A 16-18 inch should shoot 1 moa +/- and be around 9 lbs.

This old dog don't hunt so my guns now tend to have long barrels, it's a short trip to the bench!

There are a lot of choices on the 7.62 platform on Gunbroker, some really good buys if you go used.

IMHO, Noveske makes the best AR10 style, followed by ArmaLite. The Noveske's can be spendy.

If I was going to build a 7.62 for hunting I would go with a 18 inch barrel and a mid length carbon fiber floated hand guard.

 

[Z-Michigan]

The reason I'm looking at an AR in the first place is I'm under the impression that I can get all the pluses of a semi auto with bolt action accuracy.

All very sensible.

If you're hunting only deer and never past 250 yards, 6.8 SPC will be ideal. Get one with a free-floated barrel like those from AR Performance, buy a complete lower separate or build your own lower, and enjoy your sub-8lb accurate handy deer rifle.

If you're hunting anything larger than deer or at more than 250 yards, .308 is probably a better bet, but it's going to weigh 1-2lbs more at least for an equivalent setup.

 

[biggameballs]

Reality is that in my 15 years of deer hunting I've never had a shot at a deer over 200 yards, most of them 50-75. After reading up on the 6.8 rem I think it would do just fine plus I shoot a 270 win now and love the .27 cal bullets.

I'm not real confident in my ability to build an AR becasue I dont know squat about them. This is the gun I've found that I think would best suit my needs and be in my price range.

http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=416


Are these RRA guns any good? Says it shoots 3/4 MOA at 100. Also I dont really need the front sight rail becasue I'll be mounting a Nikon Monarch Gold 1.5-6x42 on it. Can I shave weight by getting rid of it? I also think I'd rather not have the flash hider and would rather have that extra length be just barrel. Would a carbon front grip be better for hunting in the cold? I hunt northern MN in sub zero temps and I could imagine an alluminum tube being pretty cold on the hand.

One last stupid question. What's the difference between a 1 and 2 stage trigger and which is best suited for hunting.

 

[Z-Michigan]

The RRA gun will be "fine" but really is not what I would choose. In particular I wouldn't care for the 1:10 twist (not ideal for 6.8 SPC) and the carbine length gas system. It probably will meet the accuracy claim using the best match ammo and 3 or 5 shot groups. If you read up on 6.8 SPC you'll see that 1:10 twist is definitely out of favor.

I really think your best value and accuracy will a complete upper from one of the companies below, then installed onto a complete lower purchased separately. If you buy a complete lower, the "assembly" consists of putting upper onto lower, pushing two push pins and doing a function check. 30 seconds would be generous, and the skill level required is zero. Complete lowers are easy to find and reasonably priced, and many options are available.

http://ar15performance.com/
NOTE: this one also offers complete rifles, one-stop shopping

http://bisonarmory.com/

If you just don't like that route, the Armalite below will probably be better than the RRA in every way but accuracy, and probably not far behind in accuracy:

http://www.armalite.com/ItemForm.as...Category=8e8e5de6-5022-483e-812b-822e58014822

Armalite claims only 2 MOA for this rifle, but that claim is probably based on 10-shot groups (as the military uses) and is not perfectly comparable to the RRA claim. Anyway, if it's that "bad" you're still talking 4" groups at your max hunting range of 200 yards. That's a heart shot on a deer.

A 2-stage trigger has a light first stage followed by a second stage where the trigger "breaks" and shoots. A single stage has only one. USGI triggers are single stage, and vary from OK to awful. Most two-stage triggers have a better, cleaner break, and in general a two-stage is a better choice for hunting, at least at the relatively heavy pull weights used in AR-15s.

 

[Z-Michigan]

A couple more thoughts to add on that RRA:

-the free float tube is a Hogue and is rubber coated, so you won't be touching bare aluminum

-the A2 length fixed stock may be great when you're in a t-shirt in the summer, but in cold weather you're likely to find it too long pressed against your heavy insulated coat, unless you have a 37+ sleeve length. An adjustable buttstock (telestock) eliminates this issue.

-The Vortex flash hider is relatively expensive and has little benefit for hunting. I would much rather have a muzzle brake, or just a plain crowned muzzle. A brake can be installed on the 5/8x24 threads but then you're adding $50-100 over the initial cost, which itself was higher due to the pricey Vortex.

As far as RRA's overall reputation, it's decent, but while they have a few worshippers most people view them as simply another mid-tier consumer-focused make. You may find the chart below interesting:

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA&single=true&gid=5&output=html

 

[biggameballs]

Z michigan thanks for all the input. As you can tell I'm new to this AR stuff. To be honest I dont even know what all these differnt parts on them are or truley how they operate. I just know it looks like something I could shoot well and will get the job done. NOT real sure what all the stuff on that chart you posted even was. I dont need some high end custom gun. I just want something that is reliable, accurate, light, and quite frankly looks the way I want it to.

Is there any things that are worth the money to upgrade? Also I'm with you on the flash suppressor. I dont see any need for a muzzle break or flash suppressor on something that's going to kick like a kids gun compared to some of the bolts I've used. I'm really hoping that I can find a basic rifle that I like and then say "okay get rid of this and lets add that". Will most manufactures do that?

 

[Z-Michigan]

Only a few companies will customize a gun the way you are thinking about, at least without major hassle. RRA is a company that will do some degree of custom building for you, but I don't think the final product will be as good as you could get elsewhere. It's not that they're bad, it's just that significantly better is available and doesn't cost any more.

I know I'm a broken record, but visit bison armory and ar15performance, look at all the options and then call or email one or both of them to discuss what you want. They will be almost certain to work with you and get you pretty much exactly what you want. At ar15performance you should ask about the nitride treated barrels, that would be ideal for your uses.

Most things on the "chart" go to reliability, durability, and/or function. Custom features are outside of that chart. There is a good explanation at the chart itself. I mostly wanted you to see where Armalite and RRA placed in terms to making nice M4-style carbines, which somewhat translates into the quality you're looking for.

Oh, and whether it looks tactical or not, the telestock buttstock would be very valuable for going from summer t-shirts to winter heavy jackets and maintaining a good length of pull.

 

[biggameballs]

Z Michigan thanks for all your help. I think after all my christmas shopping is done and I'm ready to buy for myself I'll give AR15performance a call. I did some looking around on their website and they do seem to know their stuff and have a quality product. I also noticed that they have a "custom" offering of 308 class rounds that they have been able to machine and fit into a smaller ligher AR platform. It looks like that would be more expensive but might be worth exceeding my initial budget. Are there any problems with these custom guns?

One last thing and I'll leave you alone. Lets say I get the gun I want built to my specs and I have and extra couple hundred dollars to play with. Is there anything specificly pertaining to the function of the gun that would be worth the money to upgrade?

 

[Z-Michigan]

You might want to consider a nicer trigger in the lower receiver. There are a lot of options. For not too much money the Armalite 2-stage is pretty good. For a lot more money ($170-300), any of the Geissele triggers are wonderful. There are a lot of other quality options too. However, the only triggers that have proven reliable in military combat use are the original USGI trigger, with its gritty pull, and some of the Geissele options.

Otherwise if the rifle is built correctly you shouldn't need other upgrades. Any spare money could go into a scope and quality mount.

 

[mljdeckard]

Yep, the trigger.

And seriously, think hard about building the lower, AR-10 OR AR-15. It's so easy you will smack yourself for not doing it sooner.

I am getting an AR-10 with uppers in .243 and .308, because I want to be able to say I hunt with nothing BUT AR-pattern rifles.

 

[biggameballs]

Other then the trigger is there a lot of difference or moving parts in a lower? Who makes a great lower in 6.8 that I could combine with the
ar15performance upper?