What knife for marine?

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Great question....great and interesting responses.

Your brother(?) will receive a fine knife more than capable of his daily service requirements. I think you want to get him something special to carry with him. I would agree with those that suggest a good multi tool and would also recommend a leatherman...but the Leatherman Wave. I wish you both well.
 
Let me back up a bit. I missed the following

It's a hard sell to make me believe that Soldiers abandoned their knives. Makes no sense whatsoever.

I'm a historian, so don't take the following personally. It doesn't matter what you believe, it's documented historical fact. As a combat troop, if you think about it, it DOES make sense. A laden-down soldier, carrying all his fighting tools, shelter, and food on his person is likely to deliberately lose things he has found aren't essential, and the knives in question- large bowies that were usually close to short swords in size- were the least essential items. That's even in an environment where they had considerably more utility than in our age of repeating firearms.

lead, I don't mean to make it sound like you have no idea what you're talking about. Your suggestions (small folder, small fixed blade) are good. I also completely agree with your suggestions regarding a small LED (a mini Mag Lite with Red Nite-Ize LED module is a good choice, along with a red Photon Freedom) and a multitool. As someone with a good bit of experience training with sticks, knives, swords, flexibles, thrown objects and what have you, I can tell you that almost anyone will be better served with a buttsmash from a carbine, or simply punching an enemy with their muzzle than trying to fight them off with a small knife.

TROOPS DO NEED INSTANTLY ACCESSIBLE KNIVES. The reasons they may need them, though, are considerably different than what you suggest. I hope you will carefully consider what I have said. After carefully considering it, try to let go of some of your preconceptions, and take these things out and actually try them for yourself.

Regards,

John Shirley
 
BTW: The only few uses I ever had for a combat knife was chopping underbrush for camo, and opening C-Rat cans.
Oh, and keeping my web gear from becoming too light & floating up under my arm pits all the time. :what:

They don't have underbrush or C-Rat cans in Iraq, and I doubt his Molly gear & body armor will be light enough to cause problem #3!

rcmodel
 
You might take a look at the Swedish Army issue knife:

http://ragweedforge.com/SwedishKnifeCatalog.html

#760-MG

I have a couple and they do all a knife should do, plus they're light and made of good quality, easy to sharpen steel. Could be used in a fight in a pinch. I'm sure they would fail if used as a prybar, but the only knife that's not true of is a Himalayan Imports khukri AFAIK.
 
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Bottom line is that a laceration or stab with a 4.5" fixed blade knife will stop a fight WORLDS faster than a clubing or buttstroke.

Keep in mind I am saying this with absolutely zero animosity or attitude towards you, but no, it won't. I am not a martial arts expert, but I can say conclusively that getting cracked with a club or buttstroked will stop a fight much, much faster than getting cut or stabbed.

Simple clothing can, to a certain degree, offer protection against a slash. A T-shirt and jeans offer zero protection against getting whacked with a club. A single strike of a bat in the general area of a bone can break it. You have to be pretty darn precise to stop a fight by stabbing someone, and in a fight for life, getting a slice on the arm isn't going to end the battle. Wearing the average flak jacket, you will not get sliced, and you will only get punctured badly if the person stabs you with a tremendous amount of force. Getting whacked in the chest is still going to hurt. Trust me on that one, as I have driven knives through flak jackets and I got buttstroked in the chest wearing one. It hurts. Badly.

Again, I will say that there isn't anything wrong with carrying a big knife, and that is each individual guy's choice. If I had a kid over there and he wanted a big knife, I would just get him a big knife and leave it at that. If it were me, based on my experience, there just isn't any way I would bother hauling a big knife with me. A nice folder and a Leatherman (I used to carry slip-joint pliers and they were awesome) would be my choice.
 
What Timbo is saying not only reflects my experience, but the choices made by genuine experts in the field that I observed. At least one 18B I was with had 18 years service.

FWIW. YMMV. You could be different, etc, etc.
 
Another good suggestion for a gift would be a camping style "headlamp" light that he can wear on his head for when he is moving around inside his room or tent or whatever. It must also have different color lenses. I have one that is red light, flood light, and focused light. It's very useful for hands free operation.

And another useful gift is a small seatbelt cutting tool. Many Marines and Soldiers die from rollover incidents where they get stuck wearing their seatbelts in a canal.

Personally I only wear my seatbelt sometimes, depending on the terrain. It's six of one, half dozen of another. If you end up in a canal or are hit with an EFP and the heat is causing your skin to melt and ammo to cook off, obviously you don't want your seatbelt to slow you down. But if you are in a rollover you probably wish your seatbelt was on. Anyway, I have one on my IOTV for either my use or someone else. A knife would also work, but risks injury to yourself or others if you are trying to cut quickly or in an awkward position (such as upside-down).

To respond to some other posts... JShirley, I am confident you know your stuff and are generally a very reliable source. However, I'm not convinced that Soldiers have ever abandoned a useful KNIFE in droves. Swords, probably. I'm not advocating carrying a sword. But knives? No. I'd have to see some credible evidence.

Yes, I agree that the club is a decent weapon. But a knife is better and gives more options. Why not have both? Weight. Nah. I hump 70lbs regularly. What's 1 more?

To score a critical hit with a combat knife is not difficult. Legs, achilles heal, hamstring, thigh, hip, groin, stomach, chest, lungs, back/lungs, biceps, triceps, forearms, hands, fingers, neck, and head will all severly injure an opponent, cause loss of blood (a persons' own blood loss has a significant psyhological effect in a fight), and decisively win a hand-to-hand fight. Someone mentioned penetrating power or knives not being effective. I have yet to meet an Iraqi (other than an Iraqi Army Soldier - who we are allied with) that wears anything heavier than a light cotton mandress or shirt. And any quality fighting knife won't even notice a layer or two of cotton. A fighting knife is a weapon designed to fight; slash and stab.

Conversely, a club requires room to swing or buttstoke; and an M4 is a clumsly and awkward club. Better than nothing, but a ballbat or staff would be much better. A critical hit is difficult and would likely only decisely overcome a combatant with a hit to the head or neck. Hits to the leg, arm, chest, or stomach can be absorbed. And it's easier for the opponent to grab ahold of and wrestle with you. An M4 is an improvised and clumsy club.

For the naysayers, let me ask this: If you had to chose, would you rather fight someone armed with a club or a knife. Or both?
 
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Both times I went over there, I carried a Spyderco Endura II (my personal) and a Gerber multi tool (this was actually issued to me). Depending on his actual duties there he may or may not carry his bayonet.

What's been said about knives being good for opening MRE's and cutting rope is about right. I carried mine around over there in my pocket like I do every day here. I used it for opening up MRE's, cutting slash wire (when dykes weren't handy), general BS, ect.

Something reasonabaly priced, quality, fairly small and light will be fine. Any of the higher end Spyderco's (Endura, Military), Bench Made, or Kershaw ($50-$100 max) folding knives will do anything he needs and anything more expensive will make him a target of the local unit THEIF. A lot of guys had cheaper S&W, CRTK, SOG, or whatever brand liner locks for this very reason, that also held up just fine.

Just FYI quite a few commands are cracking down on guys carrying their BOWIE knives around like their freaking Rambo. It's not only see it as unprofessional, but careless use of personal knives account for quite a few trips to sick call. Espc in the Marine Corps...
Semper Fi
Will
 
It's a hard sell to make me believe that Soldiers abandoned their knives.

LC, with all due respect, soldiers dumped the bowies and D-guards in the Civil War like they were anchors just as JShirley said. Visit the museums and study the history of knives and you'll see this over and over again. Specific "credible evidence" can be found at the National Knife Collector's Association National Knife Museum. They have a very nice section just on this. Feel free to come to East Tennessee and stay at my home and I'll take you up to see it some time. Until then, here's a typical entry from historical reenactors - http://www.civilwarhome.com/weapons.htm

Think of it like like mounted troops today discard the large blade sheath knives you council against. Big knives add weight and crowd the vest and risk hanging up with other gear while in vehicles. I hear this over and over from guys in combat. Just like your guys dump their big knives, Civil War soldiers dumped theirs in favor of what they used day in and day out and what was essential to carry.

OTOH the new MRAPs have a lot more interior room and the guys exit the rear through sizable doors/hatches. That may change how fast big knives go to the locker from the vest. Only reports from the field will tell.

You ask: "For the naysayers, let me ask this: If you had to chose, would you rather fight someone armed with a club or a knife. Or both?" Having trained extensively in both (and I mean years) I'd rather have a club than a knife in a fight and I'd rather fight a guy with a knife than one with a club (and I love knives).

Stay safe.
 
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Civil War soldiers dumped theirs
+1

And they had a heck of a lot better reason to carry a fighting knife as a back-up weapon then we do today. They were fighting with single-shot muzzle loaders.

If I were young enough to do it again, I'd rather have an extra 30 round mag of ammo then a big knife of equal weight.

Even 40 years ago, big combat knives where of much greater value in jungle warfare then they would be in the desert now.

There just ain't much to cut when all there is is sand and other GI's around you.

rcmodel
 
It's a hard sell to make me believe that Soldiers abandoned their knives. Makes no sense whatsoever.

I think they were leaving these huge bowie knives that were actually short swords.

And the reason:

I showed a Boss of mine, a Veteran of the China Burma India Theater, my Big Western Bowie.

BowieW49.jpg

You could buy this knife at K Mart, and in the 60's, it was about the biggest commercial knife you could find.

My Boss just rolled his eyes and said "imagine having to carry that thing all day"

From what I can tell, the amount of weight the infantry man has to carry has not changed since Roman times. The powers that be just load the grunt up with a 100 pounds of gear, and make the poor guy march 20 miles a day.

It was not long before Soldier’s tried to figure out what was essential and what was not.

Oh, they carried knives, but the heavy stuff got left behind.
 
I would again point out that I am only discussing this issue philosophically, and I mean no disrespect in any of my answers, but here we go again:

To score a critical hit with a combat knife is not difficult. Legs, achilles heal, hamstring, thigh, hip, groin, stomach, chest, lungs, back/lungs, biceps, triceps, forearms, hands, fingers, neck, and head will all severly injure an opponent, cause loss of blood (a persons' own blood loss has a significant psyhological effect in a fight), and decisively win a hand-to-hand fight.

Legs, thighs, biceps, triceps, forearms, hands (to a certain degree) fingers and even head wounds will not put an immediate stop to most hand to hand fights, and even a penetration of the stomach or kidneys won't guarantee a stop. I have been variously injured in all those areas, to include playing a full season of football with a torn biceps, and none of them would have kept me out of a fight. Hey, I actually got SHOT in the kidney, and while it sucked horribly, I wasn't out of the fight for a good couple of minutes. That same gunshot tore a hole in my stomach too. Keep in mind that I don't mean to make it seem like it's impossible to disable an enemy with a knife, and I understand that getting cut sucks, but in the long run, it's still just getting cut. Frankly, a hard enough punch or kick to the groin will cause enough immediate pain to disable an opponent as getting stabbed there will.

Incidentally, you do bring up an excellent point about seeing your own blood, and that is if your planning on getting into a knife fight, you should also plan on getting cut up, a fact curiously overlooked. You must also realize that to execute many of these moves requires you to be in very, very close and if your in that close, it's not as if your opponent is just going to stand there and let you shank him. if your opponent happens to trap your stabbing arm (which, incidentally is where all his attention is going to be), your pretty much out of luck.

A club isn't the perfect weapon, but it has the advantages of creating distance, being exceedingly easy to use, and creating signifigant amounts of pain across a relatively wide area. Also, by very nature of physics, your going to be transferring much more energy into your opponent with a club than with a knife. For example, a downward slash with a knife that is blocked by an arm is, at worst, going to result in a lacerated arm. That same sequence of events with a club is likely going to break that arm. You asked if I would rather go into a fight with a knife or a club, and 100% of the time, I would answer with "club". If you stick me in the forearm, I am going to feel pain in that specific area. If you whack me with a club, I am going to feel pain across the breadth of the strike.

Honestly, if I had to use any hand weapon in a fight, I would use a spear or a halberd. I don't know how to use either, but for all the talk about how awesome swords are, halberds were for all intents and purposes the kings of the battlefield, and it's because they created space.

As a final aside, when we were deployed to Somalia during Operation Restore Hope, you know what our best weapon was? The axe handle. The Somalis figured out pretty quickly that we weren't likely to stab them and that they weren't that scared of getting stabbed anyway, but they were quite afraid of getting hit with an axe handle. We had our rifles, but stupid rules of engagment meant that they were useless most of the time, and so axe handles became the rule of the day, and they worked very, very well.
 
I've never advocated for swords or bowie knives. I've even said in an earlier post that a 7" blade Kbar is overkill. I've consistently said that a 4-5" blade is handy, and a small folding knife is handier. Re-read my posts.

While it is really irrelevant, I'll concede that the Soldiers of the civil war may have dropped their large bowie knives. I doubt they'd drop smaller knives. This may be a matter of semantics. Regardless of what civil war Soldiers did, it's irrelevant to modern Marine infantry equipment. There is little similarity to the modern infantryman's tactics or equipment as there is to a Civil War infantryman. Nor is the prospect of survival the same. A modern US Soldier or Marine has better equipment, comforts, vehicles, weapons, food and water supply, resupply, and survivability than his ancient counterpart. So, if a Civil War infantryman abandoned his bowie knife, there may have been many factors involved that a cursory view doesn't consider. Anyway, it's irrelevant.

Here's what I carry. I have pictures of me wearing it on my IOTV on other postings. It has never interfered with any of my missions, whether it's in an MRAP, HMMV, UH60, running or rucking. It's handy and weighs like a pound or so and is immediately accessible. Works as a knife, seatbel cutter, hammer, window punch, or spear - probably will never need it in combat and would be quite please if I never did. It was like $70.

If he can have one and wants one, kudos. If not, it's no skin off my back. I was just making suggestions.
 

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It is also well to remember that there is never a clear winner in a knife fight.

One guy may die, but the other guy is not gonna be in much better shape.

rcmodel
 
Lead,

That Gerber is, I feel, a pretty good choice in a sturdy knife. I had one, too, but gave it to a squadmate since I was already well equipped.

We've really diverged into two different subjects here, and we really agree on tools for the most part, it's just the why we differ on.

I feel that an instantly accessible knife is a really good idea because sometimes soldiers get hung up in stuff, and can become badly injured or killed if not cut free Right Damn Now. I have seen serious injury missed by about an inch, but only because the soldier was about the skinniest I've ever known (5'9", 128 lbs).

You feel an instantly accessible knife is a really good idea because a troop may have to fight with it.

Now, I believe a Waved Spyderco Endura is probably a better choice than even that Gerber because it takes less room on IBA and weighs less. It can also be used apart from its Speed Dialer sheath, so only one knife need be carried.

(Admittedly, I wouldn't pry with an Endura, as I did with my Shane Justice custom knife, and might conceivably have done with that Gerber, but prying with a knife is abuse.)

Anyway, I urge you to continue to explore your use of force options. Also, don't close your mind to other views just because they don't gel with your own, especially if those giving them have some basis to know.

Take care and watch six,

John
 
I'm a big fan of Benchmade (spring loaded) folding knives. There is always one on my left boot and one in my flight gear. I don't carry the knife for protection or "just in case" but rather for convenience, you never know when you're going to have to cut away a harness, cut some 550 cord etc.

I also second on a good flashlight. The Surefire G2L comes to mind. I carry two, one with a red lens filter in my flight suit and another on my flight vest. 85 lumens with a 12 hour battery life. Can't beat it for the size and price.

You can never go wrong with a multitool. I know the ground guys have limited space and weight to carry stuff. I also have a multitool in my flight bag. Very handy.

Two different worlds, air wing and ground guys, but I was in the infantry for 8 years before I went over to the "dark side" and I would have the same gear if I were still in the infantry.
 
I like my Emerson Mini CQB-7. It is a great knife with a great edge. If he is actually limited to what you said in your first post I would reccomend that knife. 2.something inch blade.
 
I'm a big fan of Benchmade (spring loaded) folding knives. There is always one on my left boot and one in my flight gear. I don't carry the knife for protection or "just in case" but rather for convenience, you never know when you're going to have to cut away a harness, cut some 550 cord etc.

46's?
 
US Army 11B here, I typically kept a Gerber Multi Tool dummy corded to my LBE (I know, it's been a while) and a Benchmade/Spyderco/etc. folder in my pocket or butt pack. To me a knife was a tool, not a weapon, and they primarily opened MRE's and cut 550 cord.
 
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