What makes a Rifle accurate?

[rangerruck]

the bbl and the chamber, high grade materials, excellent machinery, skilled workmen. very rigorous testing of the equipment. then i would say the receiver is next. needs to be stiff, through a range of temps. the stiffer the better. a simple way to show this is the ak. fire one with a stamped 1 mm reciever, then fire one with a milled 1.5mm receiver. this one will be noticeably more accurate.
next a good stock, well inletted and bedded if necessary. next is the tirgger, a good crisp trigger is very forgiving. lastly the bullets. now i have two cz 527, one in 223 the other in 76239. the 762 can take crap ammo such as silver bear, and wolf, and jsc, all russian, and with an old 3x9 scope shoots all three under 1 in at 100 yards. my 223 with a couple diff rounds is a one hole punch at 100 yds. especially with win 45 grn varmint.
cz makes a fantastic bbl. and the trigger is a set trigger, which you can adjust down to hiccup fire.




these were all shot at 100 yds, in one day, about 1 min between shots. ther were also amny more bullets and targets shot, just like showing these, they show a good range of diff between bullet mfgrs.
i was a decent shot while in the army, and usually fired expert, especially with the a2's, but im not this good. i have to chalk it up to the equipment.

 

[pete f]

First off

Ammunition is the greatest variable if one removes the shooter.
Bullets spin at high rates of speed and any variation from concentric will throw the shot. uneven powder loads, inconsistent primer seating, bullet pull, neck length in the chamber. uneven fits in the chamber, ALL will contribute to an inaccurate rifle.

I have a model 722 Remington in .308. my grandfather bought it in early 1952 in the box with it was a few boxes of old cartridges and a couple of targets, the best of the targets is a 1 3/8'' group and he circled and wrote on the paper about how good it was to have such an accurate rifle finally. Two years ago i took that same rifle out finally and shot it. I had pulled the scope off another rifle and mounted the 4 X14 Leupold VX2 on the 722 and went to the range. My best group with the old ammo was 1 1/2" switched to new remington 165 gr and i was able to get 1'' with the next three groups, one five shot group of federal Gold Medal match 168 gr got down to about a 3/4 inch group. one last five shot group of old ammo, 150 sp pt 1 3/4".

a better shooter on a good day might get that gun to shoot 1/2 -5/8 " groups with the GMM. only change was ammo.

A good barrel counts too. but less than i thought. I bought a model 99 in 30-30 a few years ago as a project it is a take down model and i was thinking about having the bore redone. maybe to a 375 win...the original bore looked like it was a gravel road. pits, hardly any rifling left, just ugly, but the gun was purttty so i had to buy it. I tried a five shot group at fifty yards and it was dime sized, I tried five more and the first three looked really good, spread out about an inch or so. next one was a good three inches high and I knew I had not pulled it. load the last one and it goes 6 inches right and even higher. hmMMMMM i think. i pull off the forearm and drop the lever and uscrew the barrel and it glows a golden yellow sheen. the barrel is stripping copper so bad it looks like a plated bore. those last two bullets must have been 270's by the time they left the barrel. A guy at the range has some kind of electric copper remover using electrolysis. He takes the barrel and says i will get it next saturday clean as a whistle. so I figure he will save me hours of patching and scrubbing the bore. The next week I get there and he hands me the barrel and says it took two days on the "wire" as he calls it to get it clean. I put it together run down the path to the 50 yard range, first five in a bottle cap, next five look almost as good. Then i pull the barrel off and it is as bad as it was before the trip to the electrical doo dad. I have tried to fire lap that barrel and every thing, nothing works, just have to wait till i get time to ship it out and get made into a .38-55 or 375 win. BUT the first five to ten shots will be in a tiny group. Whats the point? That rifle has a good lockup, a good chamber and it had a great bore, but for now it is only good for 5 to 7 shots.

 

[CodeSlinger]

Only in the strictest, most idealized sense. THEORETICALLY, your statement is correct. In practice, it is TOTALLY impossible to achieve the consistency (ABSOLUTE PERFECTION) required to make a dinged crown a non-issue.

Yes, that strictly idealized sense was what I was referring to, though I did not use the terminology as specific as you. Definitely a purely theoretical issue, with no practical application, but thank you for pursuing it with me.

 

[AStone]

Ah, yet another interesting argument...er, discussion on THR. These are what keep me here.

Glad to see others besides me arguing the importance of tiny differences in starting conditions for the outcome. Oh, yeah, you're singing my song.

This is a relevant thread for me for the following reason.

I'm approaching a time when I will by a bolt action "deer rifle". It's still a month or two away.

From discussions on other threads (and some other research), I've already decided the caliber: 7mm08. That's set in stone.

What I haven't decided yet is which rifle.

I want a synthetic stock & stainless barrel (note my location), and a 22" barrel for ease of carry in mountains (Cascades).

But am having trouble finding exactly the right rifle with exactly that combination in my price range. (Close to or less than $1000 with a Leupold VX-II scope.)

Top contenders at the moment are (in no particular order):

Remington 700 SPS: stainless, synthetic, 24" barrel
Remington 700 Mountain LSS: stainless, laminated stock, 22" barrel
Tikka T3 lite stainless: stainless barrel, 22", synthetic

(Yes, I've considered Savage, but the fore end doesn't work for me. Browning is not in my price range at this time.)

Tikka comes with that out of box guarantee of 1" @ 100 yds. But I"m not fond of the expensive plastic magazine that is reportedly easily lost. I also question parts availability a decade down the road.

Remington 700 SPS is synthetic furniture, and has a longer barrel (which should improve accuracy), and a thicker barrel (see below), but I'm not convinced of its accuracy. (Remington's own web based description is less than spectacular compared with the next one...)

Rem 700 Mountain LSS lacks the synth stock, and reportedly has a 'thinner' barrel (similar to the Model 7) that may negatively affect the issue of this thread (accuracy) as it heats up with repeated shots. However, reading the Remington website, it seems as if they pay more attention to those (ostensibly important) details in design of this rifle that could affect accuracy.

Comments?

Reading with interest.

Nem

 

[rangerruck]

i think cz makes a 7.08 i like the idea of the tikka, also you may want to check out howa, last but not least ruger looks pretty good.

 

[JohnKSa]

When anything moves, it needs to move smoothly and if it is part of the gun, it needs to move easily and go back into exactly the same position each time after moving. The size, weight, speed and travel of moving parts should be minimized to make this easier.

Where a part remains stationary, it needs to be firmly held in place.

Where a part can't be stopped from vibrating, it needs to vibrate in a "non-chaotic"* manner and the vibration should be minimized.

Where there is gas moving, it needs to move over smooth surfaces so that turbulence (eddies/chaotic* movements) are minimized or eliminated--and when it escapes, it needs to escape evenly.

The gun should be designed, manufactured, and finished so as to minimize both fouling buildup in the action and barrel and the effects of fouling buildup.

The gun should be designed and manufactured to minimize both heat buildup and the effects of heat buildup on the system.

*Non-chaotic systems tend to consistently vibrate at a particular frequency or frequencies when an impulse is applied. You can think of an impulse as what happens when a shot is fired.

Chaotic systems aren't that predictable. They may vibrate at one frequency one time and another frequency the next. Or they may vibrate at one set of frequencies one time and another set of frequencies the next time.

The best illustration I can think of is comparing the ringing sound (non-chaotic) you get from thumping a glass vs the buzzing, thunking sound (chaotic) you get when you thump a cracked glass.

 

[gbran]

I have a cheap Savage '06 I bought for hunting. It is bedded, the barrel floated and has an adjustable trigger (Accutrigger), all from the factory. I am amazed at it's accuracy (or my ability to shoot it accurately).

My most accurate rifle is my Thompson Contender G2. I have 3 barrels for it, 17m2, .223 and the 6.8 Rem SPC. The .223 barrel groups 45 gr varmint factory loads consistently sub moa. Don't want to be accused of lying, so I won't tell how much sub moa. BTW, I'm not a lousy shot, but I'm no expert marksman. The only thing I've done to the TC was a trigger job.

I'm of the opinion that a good and accurate rifle can make a mediocre shooter look good.

 

[rangerruck]

i totally believe you gbran, the reason i didn't include bullets so much in this discussion, is that we are talking about what makes a rifle accurate? you can tell through various computers, mri , program synthesis, photocell hispeed photos, electron resistance,heat deviation, etc., and the like , if a rifle is acc or not , without ever fireing one bullet through the thing~
in other words , just by statistical guessing, if i say we have two companies here, one of which cold pour, chrome lines, hammer forges, cryo-treats their bbls, and the other company does not, we can make an assumption the first company probably has a more acc bbl than the other, without fireing a bullet.

 

[FatalMove]

Does 1moa 2moa really matter?

I guess i look at the target with a different set of eyes. Lets just say that the target is 10 x 10 Man or beast. if i my target is the middle of the 10X10 boiler room of the man or beast. if my rifle shoots 1moa or 2moa i will be at worst 1 or 2 inches left or right or high or low 1 moa or 2 moa. Be still be within the 10x10 lung area or boiler room. So Man or Beast is still stone cold dead. I realize that 2 moa rifle progressively gets off the further you get from the target. like lets say 600 yards. but then ill just sneak in closer. The majority of people, civilians i mean,dont have a place to shoot 1000 yards let alone the skills to pull it off. Im in Tennessee and im lucky to find a range to shoot 100! But i know my rifle can shoot to 300yards. I do it every year starting Nov. 19 at the whitetails. In the woods here most shots are less than 100 yards. Guess i dont strive for perfection like you other guys. I still give you the utmost respect as you strive for perfection. But Dead is Dead 1moa or 2 moa with the AR-10 by the HILLBILLY.

FataL][V][ove

 

[strambo]

Factory guarantees have much more to do with marketing than the accuracy of the rifles. Ironically, you mention Weatherby. The majority of their econo rifles did shoot MOA or better. This year they decided to take advantage of that fact and market all the ones with 3/4" test targets or better as "Sub-MOA" and charge a premium for them.

When I bought my Winchester Laredo (300 WM long range hunting model) there was no specified accuracy guarantee. There was an implied guarantee that a rifle with a free floating heavy barrel, rigid stock and pillar bedded action, backed by the Winchester name would perform in a manner consistent with it's design features. I never thought to care they did not guarantee it to be MOA, I knew it would be, or something would be wrong. It has shot between .44" and .75" with my handloads and .93" with Federal Premium hunting ammo. Exactly as I expected, a little better in fact.

As others mentioned, consistency is key. A smaller company, producing less rifles can better control things and guarantee more accuracy. I'd expect less from a Winchester/Remington mass produced hunting model then from a smaller outfit, all else being equal. As long as the rifle performs as expected for the type of rifle it is, that's all that matters. It wouldn't bother me if a light weight M700 hunting rifle only shot 1.5" groups. I bet many do better then that anyway though.

 

[AStone]

guarantee as a marketing ploy

Factory guarantees have much more to do with marketing than the accuracy of the rifles.

Ya know, I agree.

In an age dominated by 'market forces', one must trust one's gut level feelings, tempered, of course, by research on THR & other trusted sources.

Tikka 'guarantees' MOA. May be true, indeed.

But all that plastic ... just ... doesn't feel right.

Not exactly the guarantee I'm looking for.

OTOH, Browning, afaict, doesn't guarantee MOA.

But my senses, including that 6th sense, says, 'this is a quality rifle'.

Hmm. Maybe I'll buy one.

Nem

 

[travis301]

An accurate rifle? Just remember this.In my dealings with rifles,(internet,gun shows,classifieds,etc.),I have bought a lot of guns "that would shoot good",but had to turn around and sell a lot of guns that would only shoot OK.Point is that you hear a lot of hype and new ideas,exotic new calibers,new fads,etc.Stick to your time proven actions and calibers.My best success has come from earlier model 700's.Mainly in calibers such as the .222,.222mag,6mm,25-06.My .02.
Travis

 

[orangeninja]

What makes a rifle accurate? Why, me of course.

I don't have a serious response...sorry.