What Makes the Colt AR-15 Better?

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... showing my ignorance; what is BCM? also there used to be a graph, showing parts quality. I think I have it. I also am under the understanding, that most companies that build ar's, use many of the same parts, made by the same mfgrs, and that a few companies only, like partriot, LMT Larue, Wilson combat, etc., make 100% of their own parts, minus furniture.
www.m4carbine.net

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA&gid=5
 
I've little interest in arguing with you Azizza... but when multiple colts get sent back to the manufacturer before even getting the opportunity to sell as a result of HOLES IN THE METAL OF THE LOWER, I see that as a problem... perhaps when the get it right they get it REALLY right, but if that makes it through their inspection process, I wont hold my breath.

I am not saying a WELL MADE new colt wont outlast or outshoot a dpms... only that I wouldnt bet on the well made part...

I will rephrase my first post....saying Colt's quality is superior to Smith or RRA is a grossely incorrect. From MY experience, due to Colt's recent QC issues, I would suggest spending the money on a DPMS set up with the qualities you are looking for. You will come out cheaper and are less likely to be disappointed.
 
If its the LE Colt--big difference--and worth the money.
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If its the LE 6920 you are talking about I disagree, haven't see one yet where the front handguards didn't rotate noticeably if you twisted them. Even the bargain basement guns fit the handguards correctly so they don't twist.

Like AK side to side mag wobble it doesn't really make any difference unless its so excessive as to interfere with function, but it just doesn't scream quality worth a premium price to me!

I did pick up an LE 6940 which I though was a good deal at the same price as my Ruger 556, although overall for the shooting I do, I prefer the Ruger for how clean the gas piston keeps things.

--wally.
 
I am not arguing. I am stating fact. Colt makes guns that follow the TDP and use higher quality components (in general) than the other companies you are talking about. I used to seel these wholesle. I dealt with Colt, LMT, RRA, DPMS, and BM mainly. In order of problems from most to least it was.

DPMS
BM
RRA
LMT
Colt

And DPMS had more problems than the others put together. In all my years of working with Firearms I have never heard of a Colt with "holes in the lower" unless those holes were supposed to be there.

Ranger, BCM is Bravo Company. They make top notch firearms at really good prices. They also sell a number of other companies components and tend to have great prices on those as well..

Wally, how much movement was there in the hand guards? I tend to replace stock handguards with Quality rails before I do much shooting so I don't remember how much movement my old 6920 had. But this strikes me as another "fit and finish" argument. Fine the HGs move a bit. But I would rather have a Colt with a bit of slop there than a DPMS with a Non-chrome lined, mis-cut chamber.
 
Wally, how much movement was there in the hand guards?
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I've had no way to actually measure it, but visually at the delta ring it looks like easily 1/8 to 1/4 inch rotation depending on the gun.

I figured I'd find one eventually that was tight and buy it, but never did in almost two years of looking, finally gave up and then found the nice price on the 6940 which has a full length rail so the issue was moot.

DPMS has a reputation for tight chambers that causes a lot of issues, I don't have one, although I'm very happy with their .308 AR10-like offering which has been problem free so far, even with steel cased ammo.

I'd be curious as to the type of failures that happen in these "classes". As long as they are cleaned every 500 rounds or so, I don't have issues with any of my ARs that aren't ultimately mag problems. As I've slowly found and discarded the bad mags over the years reliability has greatly improved.

I do have one "no name" AR, PWA XM-forgery, that had a defective extractor. It was fine with brass cased ammo, but wouldn't go 10 rounds without a stovepipe using Wolf. Most AR-heads would blame the ammo, but I investigated as the ammo was fine (for my purpose, shooting steel plates and 2-liter pop bottles) in my other ARs. Found out the extractor gap between the bolt face and the extractor hook was a few thousands too small. Gun has been fine since I replaced the extractor.

--wally.
 
You should not have to clean an AR every 500 rounds. I have one 6940 going on 4K rounds with no cleaning and it runs like a top.

From Pat Rodgers, another trusted name.
What we see go down at class falls into these catagories.

Wear items
Specifically, extractors and extractor springs.
Bolt rings
Buffer springs

Parts guns
Parts ain't parts. If you get your stuff from gun shows and garage sales, don't expect quality
I had a guy in a recent class bragging on T1 that he built his carbine for $400 and "it is just as good as..." That feternoon it wouldn't ectract. The extractor was worn snooth and then re park'd; the extractot spring was flat (no joke) and the insert was just crumbs.
We replaced it all.
On T3 his bolt broke in half.

Hobby guns
Generally ok, but non MPI bolts may not last (we see less problems with breaking lately) and some of the new guns may not work at all. These should not have to be shot in- they should work out of the box.
Chambers are often 223, no matter what is marked on the barrel. When the gun gets hot, extraction slows down.

Worn out guns
Parts wear. Sometimes the guns are just plain shot out- more often, military guns.

Think MEAL
Magazines- serviceable mags
Extractor- serviceable
Ammunition- quality ammo, not garbage
Lube- generous lubrication

If you have that, most of the guns- even some of the very low end guns- might do well for a class or more.

On the other hand, some of the companies make absolutely great guns. They will last a long time.
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Other parts known to break down are unstaked Castle nut, and Gas Key.

For the lower some Trigger/Hammer pins have been known to break and the occasional disconnecter.


A lot of the arguments we see in these threads come from a difference in the types of shooters. Some people buy a gun, shoot a few hundred rounds and declare it good. More serious shooters buy a gun, shoot thousands of rounds and declare the gun passable for now. If you are one of the 100 or so rounds guys then you will PROBABLY be ok with even the lower quality guns like BM or DPMS. If you shoot thousands of rounds at a time then you need a better quality firearm. I didn't understand the difference myself till I started shooting a lot more and really saw what they are talking about.
 
I agree that you don't have to clean it every 500 rounds. You may never need to clean it if you keep it properly lubed.
 
Why clean it at all? Why would you put it away dirty? Wouldn't you want it to be ready to rock and roll without question as soon as you can swing the safe open?
 
I am not as convinced as Azziza on the difference between brands. I stand by what I said before that most shooters will never shoot enough to know the difference. One afternoon I cranked through 500 straight rounds of Wolf in a BM M4gery, and I had no malfunctions. I'm about to top my varminting lower with a DPMS upper, and I'm not anticipating any problems. If I have them, I will let you know. I understand that this will be a gun with a comparatively low volume of fire. I am the kind of guy who doesn't mind rebuilding and upgrading as needed.

I do clean, but not as much as the army says to. They are much more interested in how a gun looks than how it functions. They will clean guns so much that they don't care if they damage them as long as no black comes off when the armorer jams his pinky up under the gas tube protrusion in the upper.
 
someone said it earlier, but for the vast majority of AR15 shooters, any of the "big" brands should work.

I'm not planning on being inserted into a foriegn country... mainly just shoot coyotes and pigs.... maybe some crows, so bushmaster has been great for me.

There is always "the list" that commpares "H" buffer tubes to "non H" buffer tubes... black extractor spring insert to blue extractor spring insert.... shot peened bolt to non shot peened bolt...

but I think in reality the way most people shoot them, they all work well.
 
Azizza, where do you get your info from? I am not trying to start a pissing match. I would really like to know so I can learn. I know next to nothing on the ins and outs of the AR companies, I made my statement on just buying and reselling some guns. I have never had problem with my Rock River, but can tell you my Colt that I had in the Marine Corps was junk. Now I know it was used, but even when I was issued the M2 it didn't change.
 
I mentioned this in another thread but my Colt 6920 has the best trigger I've handled in a semi auto rifle.
 
Azizza, where do you get your info from? I am not trying to start a pissing match. I would really like to know so I can learn. I know next to nothing on the ins and outs of the AR companies, I made my statement on just buying and reselling some guns. I have never had problem with my Rock River, but can tell you my Colt that I had in the Marine Corps was junk. Now I know it was used, but even when I was issued the M2 it didn't change.
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I recommend that you drop by M4Carbine.net and start reading up on stuff- there's lots of information there on just about everything to do with the AR-15/M-16. It's a lot less cluttered than AR-15.com- i.e., less of separating the wheat from the chaff. Lots of industry professionals, from manufacturers, to designers to instructors hang out there, plus people who stake their lives on the AR-15/M-16.
 
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Surjimmy,
A mix of 12 years personal experience both shooting and selling ARs, close friends from both Military and LE and talking to industry professionals who have put more rounds downrange in a year than most people here will in their entire lives.

I in no way consider myself an expert and don't claim to be. But I do pride myself on trying to learn what I can from the appropriate sources and personal experiences. This is why I do most of my surfing at M4Carbine.net. Magpul, Vickers, Superior Firearms and many others have a presence over there and actively contribute. Most of the posters are active .MIL, PMC, or LE. I trust the experience they have where mine is light.

That is not to say there isn't a lot of good experience here. But There is a huge difference between a person who puts a few rounds downrange every weekend, a soldier on the front line, and a Soldier who has served multiple tours as an certified armorer and has built hundreds if not thousands of guns for people who rely on them every day to stay alive.

This is why I always get a little amused when people who prefer Colts, or LMT, or whatever Fanboys. There is a reason they are preferred. It has to do with real world experience by people who know what they are doing.

If your AR fails at the range then you are going to curse some and try to fix it. If their AR fails then they are going to end up DEAD! I am in the middle. While I don't need an AR to keep me alive every day, I know that there really are bad people out there. And on that 1 in a million chance that I ever have to defend myself I want the absolute best tool for the job. Not one that has a spotty reputation. In other word, my life isn't worth trying to save 150 bucks.

Every gun is a tool and should be ready to be used as such. Even if it is a range toy it should be 110% ready to go. Because when something happens it may be the only one you can get to.

And I haven't cleaned my 6940 because it hasn't needed it. Honestly I know I probably should but it has functioned flawlessly with just a quick rub down and some oil. I have another that I keep meticulous, but hell I am thinking of selling that upper anyway.


*Shakes his fist at Avenger29* How dare you beat me to it!
 
Some people are Colt biased around here, smells like brainwashing.

Colt are not superior nowadays, these "higher quality parts" talked about, used in Colt in the 90's, are standard in almost EVERY big name AR-15, so no, the Colt isn't a superior AR-15, in fact from what I have seen, due to the price you pay and the **** you get, it's really not worth buying and is NOT superior in reliability, fit and finish than any other popular brand. But you still pay $1000 higher, for what? A nice trigger? You can have that for $200.

Some people closed their eyes during the last dacade, and still think Colt is still the tits, it's not. And that's called evolution.

BUT, I'm not talking about every brand out there, of course some popular brands use ****ty parts, but some don't and that's these that are equal to the Colt.

If I had the choice of what I could carry in the 'box, it would be a Swiss Arms rifle. Beats every AR-15 any day.
 
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Colt are not superior nowadays, these "higher quality parts" talked about, used in Colt in the 90's, are standard in almost EVERY big name AR-15, so no, the Colt isn't a superior AR-15, in fact from what I have seen, due to the price you pay and the **** you get, it's really not worth buying and is NOT superior in reliability, fit and finish than any other popular brand. But you still pay $1000 higher, for what? A nice trigger? You can have that for $200.
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These "higher quality parts" aren't in DPMS, Rock River, Delton, etc. They are in BCM and LMT. I can pull a bolt out of a RR real fast and show you where the difference is..no MPI marking. No HP marking on the barrel. No testing done to the parts. You can find out the type of steel used. Does it matter to you? That depends on you...but there IS a difference. Also, you don't pay $1K higher for a Colt unless you're buying other ARs for $150.

DPMS and Rock River can make really good guns, they have for government contracts. The problem is that those guns aren't ever sold in the commercial market. They cut costs there and don't sell civilians the higher quality stuff. Colt's LE/Military guns (6920/6940) are the same guns that the military gets, just without the happy switch. Again...it depends on the buyer where they want to put the money but with 6920s going for $1K to $1200...It's hard for me to pass on something that I consider a life long investment.
 
We have 3 DPMS's in the family and they all work just great, when we go to the range we shoot hundreds of rounds through them and have yet to have any problems. For the average shooter any major manufacturer AR15's will do the job and do it fine.
 
Azizza, thats what I'm talking about looks like were on the same page. I don't know diddly about the world of mods. for AR's and always look forward to learning. I bought my RR cause of the experience I had in the Marine Corps with my Colts. I guess I got a diamond, cause I haven't had one problem with my Rock River. Thanks Avenger29 will check them out.
 
^^ The problems don't show up with recreational shooting, 200 rounds in a 4h montly range trip isn't "running an AR". Shooting 500 in 10 min is, shooting 10k+ rounds a year is.

They show up when you run them hard, like you do in the 'stan and in the typical "tactical classes".
What fails is mostly lower quality bolts, BCG gas key not properly staked, castle nut not staked, etc.
For having a serious AR which you can trust your life on, is built with high quality components.
You need a shot peened, MP inspected bolt.
A MP inspected 4150 (4140 is ok if it's not full-auto) chrome-lined, 5.56 NATO chambered barrel.
F marked front sight.
Properly staked gas key, and staked castle nut.
That is the minimum.

The lower doesn't matter in general, it's what is IN the upper that counts.
The "CHART" isn't complete tho, some brands like CMMG should be on par with the others when it comes to BCG and barrel. Their BCG is MP inspected and shot peened individually, properly staked gas key, have a 5.56nato chambered, chrome-lined 4150 M4 barrel that are individually MP inspected, F marked FSB, and are available with a M16 BCG with no additional charge, and the upper is T marked.
 
mljdeckard said:
If you have to ask, it probably makes no differece to you.
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Precisely. There are differences and they are factual, not subjective. However, for the purposes of most shooters, a second tier (ie smith) ar15 will be fine. Smith makes a fine rifle.

Edit: By second tier I mean not all mil-spec, not that they are lower quality.
 
Think MEAL
Magazines- serviceable mags
Extractor- serviceable
Click to expand...

Absolutely, actually the only AR problems I've had so far, and only one marginal extractor (hidden by using "quality" ammo initially) at that among my collection.

You should not have to clean an AR every 500 rounds.
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Ammunition- quality ammo, not garbage
Lube- generous lubrication
Click to expand...
I agree that you don't have to clean it every 500 rounds. You may never need to clean it if you keep it properly lubed.
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Flushing the gun with lube counts as cleaning to me :)

All my ARs will easily do 500 rounds of Wolf with nothing more than a wipe down and return to the safe between sessions. A session for me is generally 100-200 rounds per gun with four to six guns. I've got a 65 to 85 minute drive to shoot rifles the way I like, so I bring at least two that share mags -- if you've never broken a gun you just ain't been shooting enough! I shoot my cheapest guns the most as they don't have resale value to lose and have been very happy with their performance. I rarely go home with a non-functional gun.

200 rounds in a 4h monthly range trip isn't "running an AR". Shooting 500 in 10 min is
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That is 1.2 seconds per shot not counting mag changes. Without seeing it done I'd have a hard time believing it without some cooling time between mags. Maybe in snow country, but my guns often start out at 90-100 degrees before I fire the first shot. Although that is generally about the rate I empty mags when making 2-liter plastic bottles "dance". To run my guns harder I'd need help carrying the ammo :)

I have seen the YouTube video of the Nimrod with the AK running it until the front hand guards caught fire and then changed mags and shot another drum with the flames-a-blazing. That's why I've always got an AK with me, the only exception to having a spare that takes the same mags. That and the lower ammo costs.

--wally.
 
That is 1.2 seconds per shot not counting mag changes. Without seeing it done I'd have a hard time believing it without some cooling time between mags. Maybe in snow country, but my guns often start out at 90-100 degrees before I fire the first shot.
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I have seen it (I don't actually have the budget to DO it), and I believe troops in the sand box often shoot a lot.
There is a video on youtube, I don't remember the name, the guy shot 1100 rounds in about 15 min, and in full-auto mode.
 
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