What now of the Militia Movement?
- Thread starter geegee
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2nd Amendment
member
Ummm...huh?
Uhhh, cell structure? Independent groups seeking to provide resistance to government control? I thought that was pretty much the purpose and idea of the militia, as well as what I said. There are those with grand ideas of fighting a Holy Constitutional War and Restoring the Republic. They get smiles and back slapping and the quiet acknowledgement they'll be the first on any list, right up there with the aforementioned Geralisimo of the Indiana Militia.
Anyway, whatever. I'll get together with the guys every other weekend or so and we'll do our thing and try to stay current on data and in decent shape physically and capable with the equipment we have. If the Big Bad Gubermint should go knocking on doors then we'll do what we can, mainly just to survive. In the meantime I'm just too old to worry about it any more than that, Pistol. So, have a nice day. Glad to see ya stayed, BTW.
Uhhh, cell structure? Independent groups seeking to provide resistance to government control? I thought that was pretty much the purpose and idea of the militia, as well as what I said. There are those with grand ideas of fighting a Holy Constitutional War and Restoring the Republic. They get smiles and back slapping and the quiet acknowledgement they'll be the first on any list, right up there with the aforementioned Geralisimo of the Indiana Militia.
Anyway, whatever. I'll get together with the guys every other weekend or so and we'll do our thing and try to stay current on data and in decent shape physically and capable with the equipment we have. If the Big Bad Gubermint should go knocking on doors then we'll do what we can, mainly just to survive. In the meantime I'm just too old to worry about it any more than that, Pistol. So, have a nice day. Glad to see ya stayed, BTW.
geegee
Member
45Badger:
:banghead:
geegee
Agreed, although it seemed like a good idea at the time....
:banghead: geegee
Mr Jody Hudson
Member
Please consider a Community Watch; you know the people, they know each other, the dangerous ones are automatically ostracized and you get to know and depend on each other frequently.
In very rural areas almost everyone will already be well armed and well trained to some degree as many if not most are or have been hunters and woodsmen.
In urban and suburban areas there are far more areas of specialization that make sense; for instance people who know how to protect you from a sewer pump outtage if you are downhill from someone else.
These Community Watch groups have good value in normal times as well. When the little old lady needs her sewing machine moved because she can't lift it or when your wife needs a dress hemmed... it sets up real community which is so much missing today. And, you learn who keeps promises, who is fair and honest and who knows what and who is just a lot of hot air... and you find it all out well in advance of everyone's live being dependent on this knowledge.
In very rural areas almost everyone will already be well armed and well trained to some degree as many if not most are or have been hunters and woodsmen.
In urban and suburban areas there are far more areas of specialization that make sense; for instance people who know how to protect you from a sewer pump outtage if you are downhill from someone else.
These Community Watch groups have good value in normal times as well. When the little old lady needs her sewing machine moved because she can't lift it or when your wife needs a dress hemmed... it sets up real community which is so much missing today. And, you learn who keeps promises, who is fair and honest and who knows what and who is just a lot of hot air... and you find it all out well in advance of everyone's live being dependent on this knowledge.
Pistolsmith
Member
GeeGee:
If you want a simple answer to your question, here it is:
The movement is alive and well and gathering more adherants every day.
Heed the words of the poet:
Then spake brave Horatius, the captain of the gate,
To every man upon this earth death comes soon or late,
How can a man die better than facing fearful odds,
For the ashes of his fathers and the temples of his gods.
Horatius, remember, with three friends stopped an Etruscan attack on Rome by choosing their ground carefully, then when they had accomplished their purpose of delaying the invasion, they plunged into the Tiber and swam to safety. (Translation: "He who fights and runs away, wil be alive to fight another day." ) This was not true for the many brave militiamen from the Colonies who held their ground and fell before the British troops to pay with their lives for the freedoms we take for granted. Francis Marion, the Swamp Fox, on the other hand, survived the British invasion by sending out small units and using Indian tactics. Instead of sacraficing their lives for their country, they let the Brits sacrafice their lives for THEIR country.
Any disagreement you detect is one of tactics and strategy, not of principle.
If you want a simple answer to your question, here it is:
The movement is alive and well and gathering more adherants every day.
Heed the words of the poet:
Then spake brave Horatius, the captain of the gate,
To every man upon this earth death comes soon or late,
How can a man die better than facing fearful odds,
For the ashes of his fathers and the temples of his gods.
Horatius, remember, with three friends stopped an Etruscan attack on Rome by choosing their ground carefully, then when they had accomplished their purpose of delaying the invasion, they plunged into the Tiber and swam to safety. (Translation: "He who fights and runs away, wil be alive to fight another day." ) This was not true for the many brave militiamen from the Colonies who held their ground and fell before the British troops to pay with their lives for the freedoms we take for granted. Francis Marion, the Swamp Fox, on the other hand, survived the British invasion by sending out small units and using Indian tactics. Instead of sacraficing their lives for their country, they let the Brits sacrafice their lives for THEIR country.
Any disagreement you detect is one of tactics and strategy, not of principle.
hondo68
Member
God given rights - natural rights
Amendment X - The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.
Amendment IX - The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
The NRA is wrong - as usual. Those are natural/God given rights. The gov can not "grant" something it does not possess.
Amendment X - The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.
Amendment IX - The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
Pistolsmith
Member
Hondo:
None of that is in the bible or any other religious writing. Of course, you can MIS-INTERPRET anything, like the Devil quoting scripture, but a gathering of Barons forced King John to grant the rights in the Magna Charta more or less at swordpoint. God had nothing to do with it whatsoever; He was too busy looking out for the Hebrews to worry about a group of white anglo saxon Christians.
If you think the bill of rights is still in full effect, what about the one that grants every citizen the right to a jury trial for any civil matter of over $20.00 ? What a dreamer you are, lad. Come down from thine ivory tower and witness the real world as it is, crummy smells, imperfections and all.
If it isn't in the U.N. Charter, don't count on it. And, no matter how often I read it, I can't find a bill of rights with a second amendment in that document.
None of that is in the bible or any other religious writing. Of course, you can MIS-INTERPRET anything, like the Devil quoting scripture, but a gathering of Barons forced King John to grant the rights in the Magna Charta more or less at swordpoint. God had nothing to do with it whatsoever; He was too busy looking out for the Hebrews to worry about a group of white anglo saxon Christians.
If you think the bill of rights is still in full effect, what about the one that grants every citizen the right to a jury trial for any civil matter of over $20.00 ? What a dreamer you are, lad. Come down from thine ivory tower and witness the real world as it is, crummy smells, imperfections and all.
If it isn't in the U.N. Charter, don't count on it. And, no matter how often I read it, I can't find a bill of rights with a second amendment in that document.
No. I'm stating that posts without supporting documentation are of dubious value. You could be 100% correct, well-informed and wise. You could also be a tinfoil-clad conspiracy theorist who is completely talking out of his buttocks. Having read only a handful of posts by you on this thread alone, I'm hardly prepared to take your word as Gospel absent some documentation, in the same manner that you would be reluctant to do the same of me.
I post this on the off-chance that you have not yet left the forum.
Mike
PS Ok, I'll bite:
What about it?
hondo68
Member
MILITIA - When Diplomacy and Reason Fail
Pistolsmith
Member
Well, you only have to post something that refutes what I've said, together with your documentation. I've read your posts and I can't find any documentation for anything. Why do you demand things from others that you don't provide?
And, incidentally, have you found ANY STATEMENT from the government prior to Ruby Ridge and Waco that detail their strategy and tactics? All I know is what others, who are members of LE and the army, have told me. And, this was corroborated early on by others above.
Well, go ahead and post a quote from the Director of the FBI, the ATF or DEPTAR that states something like "Our intentions are to never, ever fire on Americans who refuse to surrender their weapons when ordered to do so by a federal agency." That bit of research should take the rest of your life. And, if you don't believe it, I don't blame you much. If you squint your eyes really hard, and you look off into the distance, across the purple hills, you can pretend you didn't see the tapes on the Waco murders, or you can pretend they were fakes.
Don't any of you parlor patriots get your fanny stuck in the door; I'm slamming it shut really hard this time. go ahead, bubba, pronounce your benediction.
If any of you gents don't know me, I spent most of my adult life in my state's militia, until it was disbanded by federal law and I lost my commission thereby. That gives me a right to some common courtesy and a few opinions on militias; at least that's what I thought until I met some of you.
.
And, incidentally, have you found ANY STATEMENT from the government prior to Ruby Ridge and Waco that detail their strategy and tactics? All I know is what others, who are members of LE and the army, have told me. And, this was corroborated early on by others above.
Well, go ahead and post a quote from the Director of the FBI, the ATF or DEPTAR that states something like "Our intentions are to never, ever fire on Americans who refuse to surrender their weapons when ordered to do so by a federal agency." That bit of research should take the rest of your life. And, if you don't believe it, I don't blame you much. If you squint your eyes really hard, and you look off into the distance, across the purple hills, you can pretend you didn't see the tapes on the Waco murders, or you can pretend they were fakes.
Don't any of you parlor patriots get your fanny stuck in the door; I'm slamming it shut really hard this time. go ahead, bubba, pronounce your benediction.
If any of you gents don't know me, I spent most of my adult life in my state's militia, until it was disbanded by federal law and I lost my commission thereby. That gives me a right to some common courtesy and a few opinions on militias; at least that's what I thought until I met some of you.
.
No, sir. You are always entitled to your opinions, and you have the right to voice them to whomever is willing to listen. However, you make an assertion like this:
Mike
reasonable people are going to expect you to back it up with more then rhetoric.
Mike
PATH
Member
What a fascinating thread this has turned out to be. The whole of law enforcement could not catch two maniacs running around shooting innocent people. I don't believe for a minute that they are omniscient. Remember the white van?
The Feds probably do cruise sights like this one on a regular basis and may plant messages to see who "bites" as it were. As for invasion of states with militia.....well.....I don't think so.
Resistance on a cell level works quite well.....see Mao(China) and Collins(Ireland) for proof of this. I don't see a need for any resistance of this sort here in the USA as we still, last time I checked, have democratic elections.
If you think that American soldiers will not fire on Americans when ordered to do so you had best think again. They will fire when ordered to do so. Take a group of protesters and park yourself in downtown Washington DC. Tell the feds you are there to change the government! Tienamen square all over again.
You all may find that truth is found between the position of the "pragmatists" and the "tin-foil hat" crowd.
Okay. This is my mind wandering all over the place tin foil hat post for the month.
The Feds probably do cruise sights like this one on a regular basis and may plant messages to see who "bites" as it were. As for invasion of states with militia.....well.....I don't think so.
Resistance on a cell level works quite well.....see Mao(China) and Collins(Ireland) for proof of this. I don't see a need for any resistance of this sort here in the USA as we still, last time I checked, have democratic elections.
If you think that American soldiers will not fire on Americans when ordered to do so you had best think again. They will fire when ordered to do so. Take a group of protesters and park yourself in downtown Washington DC. Tell the feds you are there to change the government!
Tienamen square all over again.You all may find that truth is found between the position of the "pragmatists" and the "tin-foil hat" crowd.
Okay. This is my mind wandering all over the place tin foil hat post for the month.
I agree that smaller units of "non-professionally trained" combatants/sabotuers would seem more effective than larger units of "non-professionally trained" combatants/sabotuers. They present a lower profile and less "leak" and/or "sell-out" potential.
However, save for the more "highly" trained units, I don't fear the common American combat troop.
I don't know if anyone else caught it on t.v., but there was a demonstration regarding the latest chemical suit that the troops were to wear and the female soldier that was donning it collapsed from the heat of the camera lights on stage.
Something else, have any of you ever watched the latest "Boot Camp" series that documents these kids going through boot camp? There was a couple for the Army and a few shown for the Marines. I thought it was pathetic and lost faith in the capability of our standard combat forces at that point. Now granted that some may go on to more specialized training, but for the most part it was lame and pathetic, girls and boys crying because of this or that pain, blisters, people yelling at them all the time, no sleep, no phone calls or MTV or cigarettes. Or they miss their mommies and daddies or boyfriends or girlfriends.
I went through Navy boot camp in '87, and though it didn't compare with the Army let alone the Marine boot camps of the day, I would say that it was more difficult than what I've witnessed on those documentaries I saw.
Either way, I'd never proclaim membership in any organization like that anyway.
However, save for the more "highly" trained units, I don't fear the common American combat troop.
I don't know if anyone else caught it on t.v., but there was a demonstration regarding the latest chemical suit that the troops were to wear and the female soldier that was donning it collapsed from the heat of the camera lights on stage.
Something else, have any of you ever watched the latest "Boot Camp" series that documents these kids going through boot camp? There was a couple for the Army and a few shown for the Marines. I thought it was pathetic and lost faith in the capability of our standard combat forces at that point. Now granted that some may go on to more specialized training, but for the most part it was lame and pathetic, girls and boys crying because of this or that pain, blisters, people yelling at them all the time, no sleep, no phone calls or MTV or cigarettes. Or they miss their mommies and daddies or boyfriends or girlfriends.
I went through Navy boot camp in '87, and though it didn't compare with the Army let alone the Marine boot camps of the day, I would say that it was more difficult than what I've witnessed on those documentaries I saw.
Either way, I'd never proclaim membership in any organization like that anyway.
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Gordon
Member
Oh now 'pistolsmith' has gone and given my three man cell plan away! I was general with my three sons as captains, being a general I of course could stay in(on my) rear. Being less than 5 man squad threshold gubbamint wouldn't waste smart munition. Would probably send cops and one of my sons is one so he'd know theyd be coming. Anyway US soldiers wouldnt disarm militia, imported UN troops would who would love to shoot US patriots.
BTW"The Feds probably do cruise sights like this one on a regular basis and may plant messages to see who "bites" as it were." To those feds I say"hey you Rat turds "bite on this". Molon Lave
BTW"The Feds probably do cruise sights like this one on a regular basis and may plant messages to see who "bites" as it were." To those feds I say"hey you Rat turds "bite on this". Molon Lave Don Gwinn
Moderator Emeritus
Folks, I remind you all:
If you make an assertion, it is your responsibility to provide evidence. It is NOT the responsibility of others to prove you wrong.
Pistolsmith, if you're reading this (and we all know you are) the problem has nothing to do with your views. The problem is rooted in your attitude. There are things we don't do here. We don't call each other names, for instance.
If you make an assertion, it is your responsibility to provide evidence. It is NOT the responsibility of others to prove you wrong.
Pistolsmith, if you're reading this (and we all know you are) the problem has nothing to do with your views. The problem is rooted in your attitude. There are things we don't do here. We don't call each other names, for instance.
NIGHTWATCH
Member
I dont know much about the militia except that I believe it to be "the people". I believe that so long as at least half of our nations citizens are armed, that the government has little chance of disarming us with our armed forces (causing a division of the country not seen since the civil war). I also believe it is an issue of will power. What are YOU prepared to do and sacrifice. I love my life but I love my country more and Im not alone. And I think that most politicians know this. It would be open season on politicians, judges, lawyers, police and military officials. Anyone and everyone involved in our demise. And we would win, if the will is present.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from
time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants - Thomas Jefferson
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from
time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants - Thomas Jefferson
Wildalaska
member
Kin ah take off mah tinfoil hat now?
WildtheyareaftermeAlaska
WildtheyareaftermeAlaska
Oracle
Member
From what I've seen, the Militia Movement finally died on 9/11. Now, there are still militias, but public support for them has waned to the point that there is little to no support for militias in public opinion now. What's more, and this is the real kicker, is that most of the decent and normal people, the people who were mostly just concerned about the state of their country have left the militia groups. What is left of the militia movement is largely comprised of reactionaries, racists and Christian Identity adherents, and other nutballs. The decent people who once swelled the ranks of these organizations have left these groups and mostly formed small family-and-friends survival groups that don't advertise and that don't want attention. What you have left are the "true believers", the better of these are simply nuts and reactionaries who believe every conspiracy theory they come across, the worse are Christian Identity adherents and theocrats who want to overthrow the government and establish a theocracy based upon their twisted beliefs. I'd avoid the "militias" of today like the plague.
2nd Amendment
member
Guess you should actually have some contact with one instead of just reading the latest press releases then, Oracle. 9/11 saw a serious upswell in interest. The Patriot Act, et al, sparked more interest. And while the nuts exist, like the example I provided earlier, they are still a minority and public support for the majority seems to have improved noticeably. In short, I'm not quite certain how you could have been more wrong in a single post.
Oracle
Member
2nd Amendment,
I have had some contact with one, several, actually. There are two "militia groups" in the Georgia area, the "Militia of Georgia" and the "Georgia Militia Emergency Response Team", who split off from the first group. Both are led by anti-semitic nutballs, one who is a Christian Identity adherent or sympathizer, and the other who calls himself a "Colonel". Both get maybe a 10 people each to go on their "FTX's" (usually a few guys and their young kids), while they might get double that at a meeting, when they are able to convince people to go to one. The "Militia of Georgia" has a strong Christian Identity element in it, and both groups spend more time badmouthing each other than virtually anything else. When these groups were together, around the end of 1999/beginning of 2000, they garnered upwards of 70-100 people per meeting, now they are lucky if they can even more than a handful of the "die-hards" together.
Kentucky is another state where most of the "militia groups" have scattered to the four winds, after the "state commander", Charlie Puckett was convicted of being a felon in possession of firearms, and another Kentucky militia member, Steve Anderson (who used to regularly broadcast a heavily racist and Christian Identity inspired radio program over shortwave while a militia member) shot a police officer, and to my knowledge is still at large, probably being hidden by Kentucky "militia members".
I'll bet you're proud to share the "militia" banner with these folks, aren't you?
So, I do keep up on the local "militia groups", and have seen them on the wane significantly since 9/11, at this point, both of the groups in GA are just the self-appointed "militia commanders" and their sycophantic hangers-on. They have absolutely no public support, and tolerate (and in some cases, privately encourage) anti-semitism and Christian Identity in their ranks. This isn't even to mention the myriad conspiracy theories that are spouted as "god's honest truth" by their "Commanders" and the few remaining members. Your area may be different, but here, it exactly as I have described.
I have had some contact with one, several, actually. There are two "militia groups" in the Georgia area, the "Militia of Georgia" and the "Georgia Militia Emergency Response Team", who split off from the first group. Both are led by anti-semitic nutballs, one who is a Christian Identity adherent or sympathizer, and the other who calls himself a "Colonel". Both get maybe a 10 people each to go on their "FTX's" (usually a few guys and their young kids), while they might get double that at a meeting, when they are able to convince people to go to one. The "Militia of Georgia" has a strong Christian Identity element in it, and both groups spend more time badmouthing each other than virtually anything else. When these groups were together, around the end of 1999/beginning of 2000, they garnered upwards of 70-100 people per meeting, now they are lucky if they can even more than a handful of the "die-hards" together.
Kentucky is another state where most of the "militia groups" have scattered to the four winds, after the "state commander", Charlie Puckett was convicted of being a felon in possession of firearms, and another Kentucky militia member, Steve Anderson (who used to regularly broadcast a heavily racist and Christian Identity inspired radio program over shortwave while a militia member) shot a police officer, and to my knowledge is still at large, probably being hidden by Kentucky "militia members".
I'll bet you're proud to share the "militia" banner with these folks, aren't you?
So, I do keep up on the local "militia groups", and have seen them on the wane significantly since 9/11, at this point, both of the groups in GA are just the self-appointed "militia commanders" and their sycophantic hangers-on. They have absolutely no public support, and tolerate (and in some cases, privately encourage) anti-semitism and Christian Identity in their ranks. This isn't even to mention the myriad conspiracy theories that are spouted as "god's honest truth" by their "Commanders" and the few remaining members. Your area may be different, but here, it exactly as I have described.
2nd Amendment
member
I described our own area version of exactly what you're describing. He gets all the attention. The rest of us sit back and watch and shake our heads. These people aren't the militia, anymore than Je$$e Jackson is the average Democrat. They do, however, get the most attention and to know what's really going on you have to get past these bozos. Basically that means finding that 100 or more who no longer attend "those" meetings. They didn't cease to exist or suddenly change what they believe, they just figured out who they wanted to be associated with.
Oracle
Member
2nd Amendment,
From those whom I've talked to or heard about, the 100 or more people who used to attend "those" meetings have, like I said, gone on to form small "friends-and-family" groups, solely comprised of people that they know they can trust, they don't advertise, and they don't consider themselves to be "militia groups", they refuse to organize on any larger level because of their horrible experiences with the "Militia of Georgia" and it's "Commander". The "Commander" of the "Militia of Georgia" continues to be recognized as the "go-to" man for the "militia" in the State of Georgia by other State militia groups, and he has actively caused problems for anyone who tries to start any other militia or militia-related group outside of his "command", who don't want to have anything to do with that anti-semitic idiot or his Christian Identity pals. This has virtually destroyed any chance of a non-corrupt "citizen's militia" in the State of Georgia.
From what I've heard, this is the situation in many States. Like I said previously, it may not be the situation where you are, but it is the situation here, and from what I've heard, in many other places.
From those whom I've talked to or heard about, the 100 or more people who used to attend "those" meetings have, like I said, gone on to form small "friends-and-family" groups, solely comprised of people that they know they can trust, they don't advertise, and they don't consider themselves to be "militia groups", they refuse to organize on any larger level because of their horrible experiences with the "Militia of Georgia" and it's "Commander". The "Commander" of the "Militia of Georgia" continues to be recognized as the "go-to" man for the "militia" in the State of Georgia by other State militia groups, and he has actively caused problems for anyone who tries to start any other militia or militia-related group outside of his "command", who don't want to have anything to do with that anti-semitic idiot or his Christian Identity pals. This has virtually destroyed any chance of a non-corrupt "citizen's militia" in the State of Georgia.
From what I've heard, this is the situation in many States. Like I said previously, it may not be the situation where you are, but it is the situation here, and from what I've heard, in many other places.
2nd Amendment
member
No, we don't have an ego maniac who has managed to entrench himself. The maniacs are all known and pretty well dismissed. Likewise all I know have focused on their own small groups, though they maintain a loose association. Seems you're worse off than we are here. We've got a couple pretty good guys still coordinating things at the "state level" but the desire to create a fully organized state wide force does seem to have pretty well waned. The interest and involvement is still there though and fortunately mostly undamaged. But there is our local Geralisimo. I've got to wonder how many he has scared off.
I've got to wonder how many he has scared off.bogie
Member
Heh - I think I met that Anderson fellow... At Knob Creek back in '97... Right before I offered to take on the Kentucky Militia single-handed... I didn't really appreciate the sudden turn that the conversation had toward "mud people" after some BS "broadcaster" showed up at the campfire... Puckett and the boys didn't really impress me either... Buncha skanky-haired (as opposed to neatly groomed hippie types) non-disciplined louts.
Dang, that was some good bourbon... Too bad I didn't have more of it, or I might have actually tried a first strike...
The Militia (as a concept) will be painted by the media as being a group of domestic terrorists - IMHO, considering some of the folks involved in the "organized" movements, that isn't all that far off, and it is rather insulting that these idiots are identifying themselves as "the Militia" rather than a bunch of cheap beer swilling racist bleeps. The "militia movement" died in OK City.
In reality, should nasty stuff happen, the Militia will be called upon to help - the call will more than likely be a "help your neighbors" dealie, but hey, that's what country folks do best. City folks, on the other hand, have their duct tape and plastic sheeting.
Dang, that was some good bourbon... Too bad I didn't have more of it, or I might have actually tried a first strike...
The Militia (as a concept) will be painted by the media as being a group of domestic terrorists - IMHO, considering some of the folks involved in the "organized" movements, that isn't all that far off, and it is rather insulting that these idiots are identifying themselves as "the Militia" rather than a bunch of cheap beer swilling racist bleeps. The "militia movement" died in OK City.
In reality, should nasty stuff happen, the Militia will be called upon to help - the call will more than likely be a "help your neighbors" dealie, but hey, that's what country folks do best. City folks, on the other hand, have their duct tape and plastic sheeting.
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