What penetrates bullet proof vests?

[Manedwolf]

I've been reading some threads on the dreaded black talon and saw several mentions about it being armor piercing. Of course, i don't buy this as it was mentioned that body armor is tested with ball ammo because it penetrates better.

However, my question is WHAT does it take to breech body armor? I know that FN 5x7 does, but it's a 2300fps aluminum/copper round...I think. Most pistol rounds only reach about 1300fps, hardly more from what I've read. Anyhow, I do know the FN 5x7 will breech armor because that's one if it's selling points in it's own ad.

Just curious, no clandestine plans. When I first started looking at pistols, a guy in the gun shop was pointing me in the direction of a makarov for a solid budget gun and took me to the ammo aisle and pointed out a few brands in 9mm that he said WOULD pierce body armor, they were not Makarov 9x18though. I forgot the brand.

Is there a brand of ammo out there that makes this claim, besides the FN 5x7, of course. Bet the feds would be all over that, it would be a liberal media bonanza for sure.

jeepmor

There's a lot of claims that hot 7.62x25 out of a CZ-52 will go through a Type II vest.

 

[Optical Serenity]

Heres my question, why the concern over trying to penetrate a vest?

 

[McCall911]

Heres my question, why the concern over trying to penetrate a vest?

+1

 

[telomerase]

Heres my question, why the concern over trying to penetrate a vest?

__________________


Because they've been common for 30 years? Maybe I'm just more safety oriented than most, but I have always worn one around new shooters and/or public pistol ranges. Nothing stops bad people from using them, either.

When vests are outlawed... oh, but you've probably heard that one.

 

[whm1974]

There's a lot of claims that hot 7.62x25 out of a CZ-52 will go through a Type II vest.

Considering that a lot of ComBloc mil surpluse and Chinese ammo is steel jacketed and/or core, I think that "normal" 7.62x25 can penatrate a type II vest.

-Bill

 

[doubleaes2]

Its the same as 9mm. I have a 7.62 and a 9mm upper for my cz52, and both rounds use the same mag. Also when you butt the two round's bases together, there is no difference in diameter.

"Howabout a 22 Reed Express?"
What's the case head size for the tokorev round similar to? Sounds like it may be adaptable to a Glock 20(10mm)...very...disturbing/interesting?

 

[grimjaw]

Heres my question, why the concern over trying to penetrate a vest?

Curiosity?
Concerns about their reliability/effectiveness if I'm going to buy one?

Could be malicious reasons, too, I suppose.

jmm

 

[jeepmor]

No clandestine plans, just curious.

Heres my question, why the concern over trying to penetrate a vest?

Just curious if there would be a physics discussion or not. I have a mechanical engineering background and this type of physics has always intrigued me. Discussion was started to learn more about the engineering that goes into this type of protection.

The physics of dissipating the projectile's energy across a large enough surface area while simultaneouly preventing too much deflection to cause bodiy injury is fascinating. Not too mention preventing the puncture of the material dissipating the energy, neat stuff. I did not know there were so many classifications either. Makes sense now, but I did not know what data was avaialable, so I asked.

How does the kevlar stand up after it's been wet? Nylon materials (kevlar is one of these) usually lose strength when wet, is this factored in.

jeepmor

 

[nightman]

Check out the box of truth
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot16.htm

 

[Optical Serenity]

Do as the bad guys do to us cops, just aim at the head... That is one reason why we continually train to shoot one to the head, two to the chest...and then again one to the head....that formula takes care of the vest situation.

 

[Moonclip]

I never said the Tok round was designed to go through a vest but the fact remains it is more capable of doing so than other rounds therefore a possible topic for the anti gunners once they decide to move on to another sensational topic other than the 50BMG of late. As for steel CORE 7.62x25, I doubt much if any is around as steel core pistol rounds are a big no no in the USA.

 

[jd25q]

But I now my vest (IIIA with plate) is rated up to .44 Mag w/o plate and .308 Winchester with the plate. Government 9mm, which is loaded slightly hotter than normal, won't penetrate it. Then again most cops don't wear this type of military body armor.

1. I can't imagine why you included the last sentence.

2. Nothing in the original question dealt with what it would take to kill an LEO.

3. Some questions are better left unanswered, particularly when you don't know the audience.

If it sounds like I took it personally I do.

This board is such a resource, it's like the library or something, but all I have to do is ask.jeepmor

Not always a good thing. Why would body armor penetration be anyone's prime criteria for selecting a personal defense round? The characteristics that make it work would certainly make it a poor performer on the 99.99% of unarmored threats (relative to traditional handgun ammunition).

 

[benEzra]

One thing that I don't think anyone has mentioned yet is that any ammunition made of hard materials (which would allow a handgun bullet to penetrate a vest that would otherwise be proof against that caliber) are banned by a 1986 Federal law. That law was extended to .223/5.56x45, 7.62x39, and .308/7.62x51 in 1994 by a BATFE administrative ruling, which is why you can't buy steel-core 7.62x39 or tungsten-core .223 or .308.

Story of the 1986 law here: http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvcopk.html

A FiveSeven will NOT penetrate a Level II or IIIA vest with civilian-available ammunition, per the BATFE, and will not penetrate IIIA with any ammunition not made of hard materials banned by the 1986 law. The Brady Bunch propaganda video showing a FiveSeven penetrating a vest with "civilian" ammunition was an old IIA vest, not even rated to stop .357 magnum, as I recall. The CZ-52 is probably similar, I suspect.

The widely touted armor piercing capabilities of the military FiveSeven round have been published far and wide, but that ammunition is not, and has never been, available to non-LEO civilians in the United States, as it falls under the 1986 AP handgun bullet ban.

ANY centerfire rifle I know of will penetrate up to level IIIA like it's not there. To stop a rifle round, you need a vest with level III or IV plates, or full external III or IV body armor. III will stop low- and intermediate-powered rifle rounds like 7.62x39mm, .223, and .308; IV is rated to stop .30-06 tungsten-core military armor piercing. This is why Ted Kennedy's little bill last year authorizing the Attorney General to ban any ammunition capable of penetrating a vest was so ludicrous; all centerfire rifle calibers will do so.

U.S. military body armor provides protection from IIIA threats from all angles, and III to IV threats from the front and back, IIRC. (There's a video circulating on the 'net of a soldier's body armor stopping a round of 7.62x54 tungsten-core AP, which is comparable to .30-06 AP.)

The myth of Black Talons being "armor piercing" is absolutely ridiculous. It penetrates no better than ordinary FMJ ammunition of the same caliber (actually, it probably penetrates even less than target FMJ, since BT's were relatively low-energy rounds in most calibers).

 

[Newton]

Firearms enthusiasts will tend to explore all aspects of shooting and firearms ownership in general, I think it's only natural that they will be curious about a device that is specifically designed to defeat the primary purpose of their beloved projectiles - namely, poking holes in things.

 

[Moonclip]

1. I can't imagine why you included the last sentence.

2. Nothing in the original question dealt with what it would take to kill an LEO.

3. Some questions are better left unanswered, particularly when you don't know the audience.

If it sounds like I took it personally I do.



Not always a good thing. Why would body armor penetration be anyone's prime criteria for selecting a personal defense round? The characteristics that make it work would certainly make it a poor performer on the 99.99% of unarmored threats (relative to traditional handgun ammunition).

Nice first post and thanks for joining us! I don't think CAUSAF meant any harm by his post, I doubt much of the criminal element reads THR, and believe me, it has been common knowledge on the street for years that LE is wearing body armor, you can thank the media for that initially.

In fact, the first time I was really aware of 7.62x25 armor penetration was in the early 1990's. A gun writer named Chuck Karwan did a write up on it in the Book of Combat Handgunnery volume #3. He said that he initially though about not publishing his findings but he figured more LE than criminals read his books and he wanted to get the info out to those who would be impacted by it most generally.

 

[jd25q]

I'm sure he didn't mean any harm, but I guess it just hit me the wrong way. I've been watching this forum for awhile, and there is clearly a lot of expertise and experience here. I think we just need to be careful about sharing some of it when it may end up hurting the good guys in the end.

In law enforcement we are facing some serious domestic threats in the form of very well organized and sophisticated gangs. They do their homework. Where is the guy who asks these questions? Hopefully not in Kabul or Fallujah. After all we just told him what level of armor our guys are wearing and specifically what that means. I think we are very much less aware of information security now than during WWII for instance. We are very fortunate that this war effort does not affect our everyday lives. Perhaps it should a little more.

Thanks for the welcome to the forum. Don't mean to get off on the wrong foot.

 

[psyopspec]

Where is the guy who asks these questions? Hopefully not in Kabul or Fallujah.

I'm the one who posted that chart in the 5th entry. From reading the question, it took me less than 10 seconds to google it from a web site that sells body armor.

The information is out there, very public and very easily accessible.