What Small Arms are Sub Crews Issued

[RetiredUSNChief]

Hey Chief, you're bragging about the San Francisco crew taking the crash, recovering, and driving 800 miles for repair. But they did hit a friggin mountain.
In my years of ground-pounding, we never crashed into a mountain. We crashed off of a couple, but never into one.


This is a very cool thread; I love the info and the stories. I never realized how impregnable a sub was. Very cool indeed.

It was a sneaky mountain...

 

[Reloadron]

Like is mentioned many times in other places there are 2 types of ships in the Navy, Submarines and Targets. ;-)

We had quite a few posters at my work and that poster was one of my favorites. Another was an image of a sub made as a jigsaw puzzle with a piece missing. That piece was the reactor compartment. The idea was to convey security. I maintained a USMC door mat at my office entry. Oh yeah, and being former Marine I was always reminded the Best Marine is a Submarine.

Love that image chief.

Ron

 

[Slotback]

Chief: You cracked me up with "Operation Golden Chicken"

 

[J_McLeod]

Very interesting thread.

 

[willypete]

First, a mea culpa. When I stated that underway watches are NEVER armed, I should have qualified that my experience is limited to fast attacks, not ballistic missile submarines.

Also, I am a nuclear machinist mate (Machinery Division). We own and operate the boat from back aft, we're just nice enough to allow the coners to think they run things.

My weapon of opportunity was usually a 2" thick, 2' long piece of aluminum barstock, or a 2" combination wrench. Sometimes a fire axe made itself available. There was one particularly memorable drill during TRE when I made my way forward with a lightsaber, too...

 

[Potatohead]

They use a SEAL Delivery Vehicle (small, battery powered submersible) which is carried with the submarine and can undock and dock while the boat is submerged in order to carry out their missions.

Just like the Bond movies!!

What an awesome thread guys, very interesting stuff...My family and I really appreciate all of you guys serving our country...I can't say it enough.

 

[Potatohead]

TMI. Silent service guys - silent service.

Awwww, c'mon. We want more!

 

[Potatohead]

Great videos Shawn Dodson...how do they keep the primers from getting wet?









I know, terrible joke but I couldn't resist





.

 

[Potatohead]

Things of bullets and submarines this thread has evolved into a very interesting thread. I would like to thank RetiredUSNChief and the host of other submariners for the wealth of knowledge and experience they have put forth and contributed. Really great stuff and thanks guys.

Ron

Well said Ron. I second that.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

If you guys wanna read up on a couple books on submarines, I can highly recommend two:

Blind Man's Bluff - The Untold Story of American Submarine Espionage, by Sherry Sontag and Christopher Drew

Red Star Rogue, by Kenneth Sewell and Clint Richmond


Though I cannot speak to confirm or deny any actual specifics as to submarine performance characteristics, or the details of any similar missions I've may or may not have personally been on, these books are very excellent reads. They require no prior familiarity with submarines in order to read and understand.

Also, if you were scared, or otherwise think that the world came close to nuclear war during the Cuban Missile Crisis of 1962, then you probably don't want to read Red Star Rogue, the events of which took place in 1968.


BUT, to keep this on track with the site moderators, I'll talk a wee bit about guns again:

Once upon a time, I was qualified as an MCI...Military Customs Inspector. I went to the school for this so that we would have a couple MCI's aboard during a Mediterranean deployment. MCI's are responsible for educating the crew on the customs requirements as well as processing all customs paperwork and performing required customs inspections.

The importance of this is that, when a ship returns from deployment which involved port calls in foreign countries, it has to clear customs BEFORE the crew is allowed to leave the ship. Even to bring on shore power, it turns out.

So the MCI will handle all the paperwork, ensure any required inspections are performed, and that the ship and crew is otherwise ready to clear customs upon return to port.

Anyway, I found out that it was possible to purchase and import firearms from overseas...and had a discussion with the Commanding Officer with respect to this, because several of us were interested. It requires certain paperwork to be completed, and, of course, there were limitations on the types of firearms. Can't import fully automatic weapons, for example. And the weapons would have to be secured aboard the ship in a place, and by a means, that the CO would approve of until reaching home port. These weapons would remain on the ship upon return to port until the actual paperwork was processed and approved by customs ashore.

If it wasn't approved, for whatever reason...then the weapon would have to be turned over to customs for disposal...meaning to-bad, so-sad, you just lost your money.

Unfortunately, despite all the preparations...not a one of us actually found anything we wanted in the ports we visited.

I was intersted in a Dessert Eagle when we visited Israel, but never got around to finding any place I could purchase one. (sigh)

 

[rodregier]

Since the Desert Eagles are primarily made for the export market, I would imagine finding a retail location that had them available for sale in Israel would be challenging. The second challenge probably would be arranging the paperwork for sale of a firearm to a non-Israeli national (even if friendly nation military force member).

{sigh}

I'll also thank you for your service.

 

[willypete]

There's a whole lot of empty space in the engine room outboards, Chief. But you already knew that.

I hear the Coners like to stick stuff in the torpedo tubes. Just something a little birdie told me.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Thanks, rodregier! Much appreciated.

@ willypete...yeah, I know allllll about that "empty space". Spent my fair share cleaning it and figuring all the ways to crawl into places not designed for the human body!

Speaking of torpedo tubes...using one tube to store alcohol from Puerto Rico was not uncommon. That or the Sonar Dome.

Bottles would be inventoried by name and quantity, wrapped in bubble wrap, then stored in one torpedo tube, which would be locked until we returned to home port.

One of our CO's let it be known that if even a single bottle of booze was found anywhere else on the ship during the deployment, he'd be shooting a water slug from that tube. (This means to shoot the contents of the tube, which is water when unloaded, as if there were an actual weapon in it. Like shooting a blank, if you will.)


See, mods? More references to shooting here!

 

[SSN Vet]

On presidential class boomers, there was a very small locker in the missile launch control center, in which one hand gun was stored. This was the only firearm that I was aware of that was not stored in the small arms locker.

When the boat manned "Battle Stations Missile", the missile control supervisor on the BSM watch bill (in our circumstances a MTCS SS... Missile Tech Senior Chief, submarines) opened the locker and donned the side arm (a 1911 back in my days).

The MTs were all very serious and a no-nonsense group. The purpose of arming the launch supervisor was self evident, and everyone on board new that under no circumstances did you screw around down there.

I was in the ships control room for drills when the Officer of the Deck under instruction made an incorrect 1MC announcement (everyone on the ship hears this). He was supposed to say "man battle stations missile for WSRT" WSRT = weapons system readiness test. In error he said "man battle stations missile for strategic launch"

We were conducting a strategic deterrent patrol and were in a "full alert" posture. If the country was at war, nothing would have really been any different for us.

Needless to say, a few people **** a brick when the incorrect announcement went out, and a correction was very quickly made. I saw the MTCS a few minutes later and he looked like he had seen a ghost.

If you've ever seen the movie Crimson Tide.... don't believe it for a minute. If a confirmed launch order is received, all the birds will be long gone before you could make a bag of micro-wave popcorn.

 

[SSN Vet]

ps....

Back in my day, the status of small arms training was very, very, pathetic!

I specifically purchased my first hand gun, a 1911 A1, so I could train myself to shoot well and clear FTEs (our 45s at the time were likely 45 years old and stove piped all the time).

I was committed to the idea that at least one person in my duty section would be able to shoot straight and keep his weapon functioning.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

Great videos Shawn Dodson...how do they keep the primers from getting wet?

The missile tube is pressurized with air/nitrogen before the muzzle hatch is opened to equalize missile tube pressure with sea pressure, which in turn pressurizes the internal spaces of the missile with air/nitrogen. When the missile is ejected from the submarine and travels through the water to the surface the sea pressure decreases, and the air/nitrogen inside the missile vents through vent holes (you can see bubbles venting from the missile in the periscope video). The inside of the missile never gets wet because the inside air/nitrogen pressure is more than the outside sea pressure. That's what keeps the "primers from getting wet".


There's also a dome on the missile tube muzzle, called a "closure", that protects the missile from getting wet when the muzzle hatch is opened underwater (provided the missile tube is properly pressurized). The missile is ejected through the closure at launch. You can see the closure at the 50 second mark of this video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uljVI4m5e3c

The missile is ejected from the missile tube in a manner similar to a blow gun. The rocket motor doesn't ignite until the missile reaches the surface.

 

[Potatohead]

Pretty darn neat. Thanks. I was kidding about primers, but was really wondering how all that gets done in the water. Thanks for your answer.

 

[willypete]

I've spent more than a few field days outboard the starboard hydraulics plant, or inside a turbine generator frame. Gets hot, but you can take a nap for a few hours.

SSN Vet, small arms training for sub crews is still pretty lackadaisical. There were guys shooting M9s sideways when I was in. Granted, they were mostly cooks, but geez...

When the TMs wanted somebody to help out with disposing of extra ammo or cleaning guns after a shoot, they usually got the country boys or gun geeks to lend a hand.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

ps....

Back in my day, the status of small arms training was very, very, pathetic!

I specifically purchased my first hand gun, a 1911 A1, so I could train myself to shoot well and clear FTEs (our 45s at the time were likely 45 years old and stove piped all the time).

I was committed to the idea that at least one person in my duty section would be able to shoot straight and keep his weapon functioning.

The range qualification requirements changed somewhat during the shift from the 1911 to the M9. However, for all intents and purposes, standard crew qualification is still nothing more than simple target shooting. There is no training on clearing misfires of any kind or any kind of force-on-force training for the crew as a whole.

This is not to say that NOBODY gets a higher level of training. Some do.

 

[bigfatdave]

Ignition Override - I was referring to sub-to-anything boarding - I should have been more clear.

===

Many here have pointed out that there's really no chance of small arms rounds penetrating the hull. My question is there a chance a round, while not penetrating it, cause enough damage, ie stress fractures and the like, to weaken it enough to become a danger especially if the boat is deep or at the very least prevent it from going deep.

A detailed answer on that would be:
1 - classified to some degree
2 - beyond my knowledge level, I jest pushed, made water, and fixed stuff
... that being said ... Sub hull material is impressively strong and it wouldn't surprise me if there was a worst-case analysis in some reference somewhere

===

subject to the discretion of the CO, who can institute No-Pants-Mondays*

No-Pants day is Tuesday, sea-turkeys on Thursday, sliders and chicken wheels are Friday.
And that's how you tell the day of the week on the boat!

===

Hey Chief, you're bragging about the San Francisco crew taking the crash, recovering, and driving 800 miles for repair. But they did hit a friggin mountain.

Hang the chart guy, that's a hell of a win for Team Rickover.
I believe someone in the engineroom died - I remember reading that it was the ERLL watch, and having a long moment contemplating where I would have been at that moment ... I'd have probably gone out the same way in the same circumstances. No seatbelts and no warning ... bad combination, and a miracle they only lost one man.

===

There's a whole lot of empty space in the engine room outboards, Chief.

Lots of little spots in the support frames for large pieces of engineroom equipment as well. Nobody inspects the square openings in the reduction gear casing, for example. Or under the various seawater pumps.

===

Back in my day, the status of small arms training was very, very, pathetic!

It was for mine as well - but I barely knew it at the time. Back then I assumed the guys running the qual range were experts - now I realize that they were anything but.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Hang the chart guy, that's a hell of a win for Team Rickover.
I believe someone in the engineroom died - I remember reading that it was the ERLL watch, and having a long moment comtemplating where I would have been at that moment ... I'd have probably gone out the same way in the same circumstances. No seatbelts and no warning ... bad combination, and a miracle they only lost one man.

I believe it was a junior A-Ganger (Auxiliary Division...mechanics for everything else on the boat that the Nuke mechanics don't own. And that's a LOT.)

He was back aft in ERLL in Main Sea Water bay, right behind the Reduction Gear sump. Studying for his quals.

The ship hit the mountain at flank speed and he kept going...head first, right into the back of the Reduction Gear sump.

 

[bigfatdave]

Same spot, I always pictured it as a nuke on ERLL proficiency or something.

That's almost exactly where I'd be loafing and listening for someone like RetiredUSNChief to come along so I could look busy, hide the book I was reading, etc.
... if I was on watch that day, in thatr space, on that boat.
(in reality, half the time I'd be digging through a tech manual, or writing the next test/watchbill, or working on diagrams for operation Silver Anvil ... but the other half was spent in appreciation of the ease of ERLL, I treated it like a vacation day when I was down there)

Chilling - something so serious you can't do anything BUT joke about it.

A lot of this is probably gibberish for the uninitiated - the clif's notes version is that a LOT of sub guys read about that incident and took a long hard look at where they used to hang out for large fractions of their watches. And some of those choices seemed pretty stupid in hindsight.

 

[Thermactor]

The Captain has access to a Walther P38 during war patrols, at least on Type VIIC submarines.

 

[Potatohead]

A lot of this is probably gibberish for the uninitiated

ERLL?

 

[bigfatdave]

Engine Room, Lower Level
Normally a fairly junior position in machinery division, but everyone would have to do a proficiency there once in a while.