What the beef with a high bore axis?

[Walt Sherrill]

The beef is, glock folks think they've got something on Sig and XD they can whine about.

All the while CZ owners laugh at all three.

Most of these comparisons seem to be based on factors only poorly understood by the folks praising one trait or another.

I've said it before and I'll repeat it: many of the men participating here seem to confuse their weapon of choice with their sexual organs, and must brag about why their's is bigger or better or something superior to others being waved around. The other sex might argue that HOW YOU USE IT is more important than most of the other traits.

 

[tarosean]

But you and I aren't Mario Andretti and aren't pushing our vehicles like that and have a heck of a lot of things to work on before we get to changing tire compounds.

You or I may or may not be able to appreciate the benefits of that difference, but we've still got a great deal of other inefficiencies, flaws, and points to work on which are much more significant, and even grabbing that SIG 226 is probably "just as good" for us, where we are in our path, if it strikes our fancy. The stark reality is not that many of us are ever going to be working on shaving hundredths off our drill times; most are just happy to get out to the range sometimes and run through a box of ammo.

Agree 100%.

Professionals whether it be Grand Master shooters, F1 drivers, MotoGP riders, can get every drop of performance out of a machine.

Us mere mortals are left extolling the virtues of inconsequential things on the internet.

 

[strambo]

If the day ever comes that my P226 and its high bore axis is what is holding me back from further improvement, I'll get a different gun...and I'd be a GM at that point so I'll know what other gun to get I guess.

I don't even shoot competitions, so I think I have some time...

 

[GLOOB]

Just like I would prefer a low bore axis for M&P, Glock, for rifles like AR-15 from 5.56mm, 6.8mm, 7.62mm, I would prefer a straight line bore to stock design(which has the lowest bore axis).

Just like I would not care fore 44 Magnum revolver

There you go again, making arbitrary cutoffs. How do you determine where to draw the line, and why do you think your line applies to everyone else? Why is it all-or-none? Somewhere midway between a 9mm Glock and a 44 magnum, what's your choice? Lowest bore axis as humanly possible all the way to exactly X, then after that you need an undefined but relatively constant "high" bore axis?

I think you agree that there are shades in there. And that they aren't going to match up exactly between different individuals.

 

[gc70]

There is certainly much discussion over what is a matter of degree. Unlike some rifles that have stocks in line with the bore, no common semi-automatic pistol recoils "straight back." Even Glock's vaunted low bore axis is over an inch and a quarter above the rotation axis of the web of the hand.

 

[Rinspeed]

Why would it not be relevant to 9mm pistols?

Because the recoil is on the light side to start with.

 

[TestPilot]

There you go again, making arbitrary cutoffs. How do you determine where to draw the line, and why do you think your line applies to everyone else? Why is it all-or-none? Somewhere midway between a 9mm Glock and a 44 magnum, what's your choice? L

The point is that there is a "line."

I never said that line is the same for everyone.

Also, high bore axis does NOT reduce recoil. It only directs more of it upwards, reducing the portion that goes to directly rearward. That does not always mean better control.

 

[Warp]

Because the recoil is on the light side to start with.

So? They still have recoil, same as any other pistol, and that recoil still limits how quickly and accurately a person can shoot them. Better control and quicker shots is still better control and quicker shots.

It's not like you pick up a pistol and because it's a 9mm you suddenly have 0.15 split times all 'in the 10 ring'

 

[tark]

What's a high bore axis? ......OK just kidding! A high bore axis? How about a broom handle Mauser..... Now, THAT's a high bore axis. Kicks like a 10MM auto, has the power of a 9MM auto.

Not sure why it is supposed to be a good, or bad thing, or why it is worth arguing over.

 

[SDGlock23]

I don't care for high bore axis pistols, like the few XD's I've owned for example, along with Sigs. It's just personal preference as they shot well enough but seemed like they sit too high up in the hand. It's kind of like how quite a few folks don't like the grip angle of Glocks, but I've never even given it a second thought, but it's a big deal to some.

 

[TimboKhan]

Meh, I contributed to this thread and now feel like I have sold my soul to minutiae . I went home and putzed around with my pistols and was super picky and whatnot and what I leaned was the bore axis played zero percent of why I like certain pistols. Shooting wise I am pretty consistent across all my different guns, so it doesn't play a role there, and ergo wise I just found it wasn't a contributing factor as much as other things were

 

[Jaymo]

AK pistol has a very high bore axis, but I won't sell mine.
I have high, low, and in between.
They all seem to work for me.

 

[JohnKSa]

Both the Walther PPS's I owned were very accurate shooters as well as the two XD's I currently have. They're the most accurate pistols I've shot.

The bore axis height has no effect on accuracy, but it does have an effect on recoil control. If you're shooting slowly for accuracy then you don't need to worry about bore axis at all. If you are trying for the best balance of accuracy and speed then a lower bore axis is an advantage.

 

[Trent]

Is it just the way they look to people, or do you have a legitimate reason for not liking guns with that design?

Both the Walther PPS's I owned were very accurate shooters as well as the two XD's I currently have. They're the most accurate pistols I've shot.

So what's the beef?

Mass above the axis of shock absorbing material behind the gun (hands/wrists/elbows) induces muzzle flip.

I call my H&K USP Tactical a "Brick" because of this. So much mass above the plane of your hand/arms, it goes back and pivots the nose up. "Muzzle Flip"

A gun with a lower amount of mass above the plane of the grip recoils more straight back instead of flipping up.

It shoots very accurately but compared to a CZ, Sig, or Glock, it shoots incredibly SLOW. (Ok maybe not INCREDIBLY slow, but definitely measurable on split times; I get a 3:2 advantage of bullets on target in any given time window)

The effect is amplified on lightweight / high recoil guns like 9mm pocket pistols, and it is atrociously difficult for women to overcome, who naturally don't have the wrist / hand strength that men generally have.

ETA: FWIW I love the fast shooting 9mm's with a low bore axis, but I *also* still love the high bore axis USP because the damn thing is so accurate and comfortable. As others have mentioned, I find a high bore axis much easier to manage in 45 ACP, while I prefer a low bore axis on the 9mm's.

ETA#2: I didn't realize I was post *80 frigging 9* when I replied so what I said was basically a repeat of what everyone else has long discussed lol.

 

[Cee Zee]

I've said this before but apparently it needs to be repeated since we're going around in circles now. Bore axis matters but other things matter far, far more.

 

[Nom de Forum]

I've said this before but apparently it needs to be repeated since we're going around in circles now. Bore axis matters but other things matter far, far more.

I agree. Funny how low bore access that contributes to lower muzzle flip has been dismissed as trivial even by quoting the elite level competitive shooter Bruce Gray. When I started shooting competitively 4 decades ago and until today I have seen many things done with equipment (I remember the first bowling pin guns tried in IPSC) and grip style (I watched Leatham and Enos develop their grip) all intended to reduce muzzle flip. Just because Jerry M. can fire a high bore axis revolver incredibly fast doe not mean using a low bore axis pistol will not be beneficial to the average shooter in reducing muzzle flip and faster sight picture recovery. That being said, Cee Zee is right that other factors are far more important to fast accurate shooting. Given a choice I prefer having any advantage I can get so I like have a low bore axis pistol. Unlike Bruce Gray who was quoted earlier I don't find lateral movement due to torque to be as much of a problem as higher muzzle flip.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Unlike Bruce Gray who was quoted earlier I don't find lateral movement due to torque to be as much of a problem as higher muzzle flip.

As I read his comments, I didn't think he was making a broad generalization about all lower bore axis pistols; he was addressing the problems he and his team had experienced shooting H&K P7s. They did things to induce more flip in that specific type of gun, to offset the lateral forces they were experiencing. Perhaps that lateral movement may have been a uniquely P7 quirk due to the ergonomics of the gun's design. He went to to say -- as have others -- that others factors may be more important if you want to lower elapsed times: muzzle flip accounts for fractions of seconds, while movement between stations is much more-time consuming.

He does a lot of work on SIGs, so a higher bore axis doesn't seem to concern him much, either.

 

[Mike J]

Walt I figured you had the best post of the thread back in post #76