Why a high bore axis?
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Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
LOL! Ok, there's that.
I don't care what you want to call it or exactly when you want to start getting the muzzle back on target, a higher bore axis gives the barrel better leverage to cause muzzle rise, it also gives your hand better leverage to get the barrel back on target.
420Stainless
Member
I don't have what many would consider to be a good reason, but my reason is that I haven't seen a pistol or revolver yet that touted low bore axis as a significant benefit for which I found at all visually appealing. For me, if two guns are equally functional and one actually looks good to me I'll take the one that looks good. I know there are plenty of people who actually like the looks of Glocks, Steyrs, and Rhinos, but I don't. I know there are others who place whatever benefits they see in those handguns above visual appeal, and I understand that also. However, I am not convinced of the benefits and do not appreciate the visuals of a low bore. I agree that low bore equals less flip, but I'm not at all certain that equates to practical benefits given whatever tradeoffs were made to achieve the lower bore.
Nom de Forum
Member
Newton's third law is trumped by Nom de Forum's first law of shooting.
Nom de Forum's first law of shooting: When something works that is not supposed to work, choose it rather than something that is supposed to work but doesn't. This law was inspired by watching Leatham and Enos shoot in the toddler years of IPSC when people were still trying to make Jeff Cooper's and Ray Chapman's stances work. Muzzle flip is like drugs: they both "handle" you more than you "handle" them. Reducing/eliminating the dose is the most effective way to avoid being "handled".
Nom de Forum
Member
Well, if aesthetics are more important than efficiency you may never find a low bore axis pistol you like, but there are no "tradeoffs" in creating a low bore axis semiautomatic pistol that negatively effect practical benefits.
420Stainless
Member
Then why isn't every competitor shooting the best bore axis position available? I know of no sport where a demonstable improvement came along where the top competitors didn't all migrate and adapt to it fairly quickly. I know they shoot what the sponsors pay them to shoot, but the sponsors won't pay them so much if they aren't winning on a regular basis.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Well...Glocks, M&Ps, 1911s, and such are pretty much ruling the roost these days and all are examples of low-bore-axis guns.
You do see a few SIGs. Maybe even an HK sometimes, though I can't remember seeing one. A few folks will still show up and run their old favorites, regardless of what the top competitors are doing.
420Stainless
Member
If those are universally accepted as low axis, then I apologize for being wrong. I never see the low axis crowd refer to 1911s and M&Ps when referring to low axis bores. I'm a big fan of 1911s both for performance and aesthetics.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Well, there aren't distinct lines. The M&P and Glock are pretty low. The 1911 is low-ish, but can be improved a lot with beavertail GS and trigger guard undercutting.
SIGs, H&K, are all very high.
Then there is a new "generation" of guns coming out which go even more extreme, like the Carcaral and the Russian "Strizh" (Arsenal Strike One). They haven't gotten the bugs worked out yet, but if and when they do, those could be quite popular.
Or, we may find that combinations of other factors are simply more important than the slight reductions in bore height presented by those guns.
It isn't like low bore axis is THE one true factor that makes a gun great. Just one of them.
SIGs, H&K, are all very high.
Then there is a new "generation" of guns coming out which go even more extreme, like the Carcaral and the Russian "Strizh" (Arsenal Strike One). They haven't gotten the bugs worked out yet, but if and when they do, those could be quite popular.
Or, we may find that combinations of other factors are simply more important than the slight reductions in bore height presented by those guns.
It isn't like low bore axis is THE one true factor that makes a gun great. Just one of them.
420Stainless
Member
If they get the bugs worked out on the Carcaral I'll be very interested. Don't know what they feel like, but one of the few modern guns aside from Kahr that I do like the looks of.
Nom de Forum
Member
The economics of marketing a new pistol are as much a factor as any other for what gets made and sold. Technical problems are sometimes easier to overcome than the inertia of the market place. Gun makers are in business to make money not guns, and to do so with as little risk as possible. They make what has a proven demand and cautiously introduce what they think may create a demand. If somebody designs a pistol with all the positive attributes a 1911 has for competition and it has a lower bore axis that reduces muzzle flip and possibly faster lock time for even better accuracy it is game over for the O-frame; but only if the price is right, the supply reliable, and the marketing done properly. Look at what the S&W M&P is doing to Glock. Gaston and his guys convinced themselves they had perfection until reality intruded on their delusion and forced them to correct flaws and offer options. Glock used to be the Model T (you can have any color you want as long as it is black) of pistols but market forces have forced them to begin to adopt a variety of "colors". If Remington can make a full size R51 style pistol in 9mm, .40, and 45, that can easily be set-up for either a light and crisp trigger pull for competition or more forgiving of stupidity trigger pull for casual users it may really rattle the Glock/M&P/1911 cages.
Or it could be that more muzzle rise that's easier to control vs less muzzle rise that's harder to control amounts to a hill of beans and gun forum members will argue that what they like is better than what you like even if it defys the laws of physics.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Naah. I don't think that's true.
Mike Kerr
Member
"Well, there aren't distinct lines. The M&P and Glock are pretty low. The 1911 is low-ish, but can be improved a lot with beavertail GS and trigger guard undercutting.
SIGs, H&K, are all very high.............
Or, we may find that combinations of other factors are simply more important than the slight reductions in bore height presented by those guns.
It isn't like low bore axis is THE one true factor that makes a gun great. Just one of them"
That really sums up the correct set of facts as we know them. I really wonder who the OP is referring to in saying that some people play down the low bore axis advantage? I think Sam explains the issue very well.
SIGs, H&K, are all very high.............
Or, we may find that combinations of other factors are simply more important than the slight reductions in bore height presented by those guns.
It isn't like low bore axis is THE one true factor that makes a gun great. Just one of them"
That really sums up the correct set of facts as we know them. I really wonder who the OP is referring to in saying that some people play down the low bore axis advantage? I think Sam explains the issue very well.
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Nom de Forum
Member
I think your "interpretation" of "the laws of physics" is a minority opinion based on what many of us have experienced during decades of shooting. I do think that some people in order to save face will continue to make an argument by resorting to obfuscation of relevant facts and observations in attempt to confuse the minds of observers.
Here is a relevant fact: design features other than low bore axis that reduce muzzle flip and user techniques that mitigate it are easy to create and use in and with most semiautomatic pistol operating systems; so low bore axis becomes a significant feature in further reducing muzzle flip. When times measured in tenths and hundredths of a second are critical to winning and living, the small advantage provided by lower bore axis is desirable and noticable.
Mike1234567
member
Yeah... the laws of physics suck because they fly into our own faces of opinion and wants... so we should ignore and argue against them.
The Hi-Point JHP I owned was tough as nails and very reliable... but muzzle flip SUCKED!!
The Hi-Point JHP I owned was tough as nails and very reliable... but muzzle flip SUCKED!!
Nom de Forum
Member
Wish I had a dollar for every time someone on a gun forum made an erroneous claim something violates a law of physics, law of motion, law of whatever, as I would be a much wealthier man.
This stuff just isn't that hard to understand. You do not have to know anything about Newton, physics, etc. to understand that the lower the bore axis of a firearm is to a pivot point the less the muzzle will rise when recoil energy is directed at the pivot point. The game of IPSC has from the introduction of the "Pin Gun" had a technology and technique race to reduce muzzle flip for faster recovery time of sights on target. A lower bore axis is technology that reduces muzzle flip. :banghead:
This stuff just isn't that hard to understand. You do not have to know anything about Newton, physics, etc. to understand that the lower the bore axis of a firearm is to a pivot point the less the muzzle will rise when recoil energy is directed at the pivot point. The game of IPSC has from the introduction of the "Pin Gun" had a technology and technique race to reduce muzzle flip for faster recovery time of sights on target. A lower bore axis is technology that reduces muzzle flip. :banghead:
LOL just compared my Ed Brown high ride beavertail equipped XSE Colt and my Sig P220 the Sig P220 if anything the Sig actually has a lower bore axis.Sam 1911 said:
Since a 1911 has a much higher bore axis than many other pistols, how do 1911s dominate so many sports where speed counts?
Never mind I know the answer.
barnbwt
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I keep hearing a reccuring argument that the increased torque/moment of a high bore reduces impact on the palm. I will just say that kinematics does not work that way, and that the same horizontal force is applied to the wrist, but.a second force is also required from the fingers on the front strap to arrest the roll --so the combination of recoil and extra grip actually increases force on the palm. Those big Bisleys feel comfier rolling because they tend to be heavy with barrels/cylinders arranged so as to make the gun longer than a semi auto of same barrel length/cartridge.
TCB
TCB
Nom de Forum
Member
Oh, I do mind your flippancy (pun intended) so here is your answer: because, as I am sure you know, speed is not dependent on one characteristic of pistol design. Nobody on this thread implied it was and certainly did not specifically state that low bore axis is the single most important factor for speed, and more specifically speed with accuracy. As I am also sure you know, the fastest pistols used in any type of speed shooting are set-up to reduce muzzle flip.
Part of the dominance of the 1911 is the very big head start it got in the race because nothing even close to being as good was available when the modern shooting games began. Don't even attempt to equate a P-35 to a 1911. If the economic forces permit it, a pistol that has the best attributes of the 1911 but improves upon its limitations will be developed. The technology is possible today, it only takes the motivation and money to make it reality.
420Stainless
Member
The reality is that a competitor at the top levels in any sport will adapt to any demostrated advantage to keep them competitive. The best driver in the world will lose to the second best driver in the world almost every time if the 2nd best driver's equipment gives him a 1% performance advantage. The best golfers in the world didn't waste much time shifting over to titanium drivers and non-wound balls after they started getting beat by golfers who were fractionally not as good as they are. There are some, realizing that they are good but not the best, or perhaps riding a well deserved reputation for past performance, that will use whatever they are paid the most to use. But a young gun hungry for recognition will look for any advantage they can find.
I suspect that bore position may play a role, but that differences in anatomy do not translate to a direct corelation. If there is an advantage to bore position though, you can bet the most competitive in the sport will do everything they can to derive the benefit, whether that means customizing their sponsored equipment or jumping to the highest performing design.
I suspect that bore position may play a role, but that differences in anatomy do not translate to a direct corelation. If there is an advantage to bore position though, you can bet the most competitive in the sport will do everything they can to derive the benefit, whether that means customizing their sponsored equipment or jumping to the highest performing design.
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