What to do when you want a pistol gripped shotgun?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Whether or not you have a use for them is of no concern to me, Justin. Bill likes them. I do, too. You buy what you want as do we all. I personally don't like modern handguns and don't own any....but you won't be hearing me arguing to you that *you* should avoid them because they're useless *in my opinion*.

Right now, I'm wondering how many of those 12,000 posts of yours were you encouraging someone to actually *enjoy* the sport as he/she sees fit and how many were you and a few others stepping all over someone for liking something you didn't?

richard
 
Serbu's exist for a reason. FBI agents use them, cops use them, Secret Service agents use them, gang members use them etc etc etc. Shorty shotguns with pistol grips fill the niche where massive, shortrange, CONCEALABLE firepower is needed.
Click to expand...
Nobody said that SBS didn't have utility; what was stated was that PGO shotguns are not routinely used in anger by competitors or by anyone that goes into harms way for a living (unless as a breaching tool).

You have yet to prove otherwise.

You can't jump into a PGO thread and then shift the dialog to NFA items to support your earlier contentions. That's just nonsensical.

Right now, I'm wondering how many of those 12,000 posts of yours were you encouraging someone to actually *enjoy* the sport as he/she sees fit and how many were you and a few others stepping all over someone for liking something you didn't?
Click to expand...
Encouraging folk is best done by speaking plainly to actual experiences and knowledge. Justin, Dave, and others have done that.

This forum is not here to make people feel better about their choices, nor about themselves. It's here to discuss and share experience and knowledge, politely and like adults.
 
Whether or not you have a use for them is of no concern to me, Justin. Bill likes them. I do, too. You buy what you want as do we all. I personally don't like modern handguns and don't own any....but you won't be hearing me arguing to you that *you* should avoid them because they're useless *in my opinion*.
Click to expand...

Well, frankly, modern handguns aren't useless. They have a proven track record demonstrating their utility in a great many applications from concealed carry to the military to the Olympics to practical shooting competitions. Your opinion may be that you have no use for them, but the great number of situations in which such a pistol is useful seems to be well-established fact.

Right now, I'm wondering how many of those 12,000 posts of yours were you encouraging someone to actually *enjoy* the sport as he/she sees fit and how many were you and a few others stepping all over someone for liking something you didn't?
Click to expand...

Well, see, I kind of lost count, because usually in between posting stuff to make noobs cry, I take a few minutes to kick a puppy, which, as you might imagine is a bit of a distraction.

attachment.php


Look, if shooting or owning a PGO shotgun blows your skirt up because you enjoy turning money into noise, that's fine.

But it doesn't change the basic fact that the niches where a PGO shotgun is useful are extremely limited, and even in those cases, there are better choices available.

In this thread there have already been posts from those with military experience (JShirley), police experience (Coronoch), hunting/ clay bird experience (Dave McCracken) and practically-oriented competition (myself.)

In that wide swath of experience with shotguns, you'd think that if there were a niche where PGO shotguns were useful, one of us would have found it. And had that niche been found, you can bet that any one of us would wholeheartedly embrace it.

If you believe you've found an application for PGO shotguns where they excel above and beyond other available choices, post about your experience. After all, we're all here to learn and share what we know.
 
And another pistol grip thread come to it's end with the important realisation by some that PGO will never be better then a full traditional butt stock for serious work and competition....there may be some applications but not enough for serious people.

Thank goodness we have retired old serious people who have mastered the obvious and are willing to take the time to set the (broken) record straight!

I was actually wondering why you don't see more shotgunners using PGO in competition......now I know.

Some ranges don't allow PGO for trap and I always thought it was because of some unfair advantage that it gave the shooter......guess not.

I think the serious guys around here are great when it comes to serious information and dealing with home invaders and shooting at people for a living etc.... but when it comes to having some fun at the range they are perhaps a little to set in their ways for me to ever really take them seriously.

As far as a gun being a toy because someone enjoys owning and shooting it well.......I don't consider any gun to be a toy so maybe the serious attitude has rubbed off a little on me.

It's not all goblins and enemy combatants out there people!

Some shooters enjoy shooting just for the fun of it and variety is the spice of life ! :)

Let's all embrace our differences and agree that we all love guns.
 
Look, if shooting or owning a PGO shotgun blows your skirt up because you enjoy turning money into noise, that's fine.
Click to expand...

Turning money into noise probably describes the majority of shooters Justin.

Why does someone that enjoys shooting for fun have to wear a skirt?

Are you suggesting that the person you are addressing is some how not a man?
 
*shrugs*

I suppose it's all a matter of perspective. If you're happy to just go to the range and blast away, there's really nothing wrong with turning money into noise.

Personally, I don't get any satisfaction out it. I get much more enjoyment from being able to clean a Texas Star faster than ever before, or busting clays, or being able to properly execute a slug transition to hit a gong at 60 yards, or being able to execute on-the-fly reloads.

For me, the enjoyment is in the accomplishment of a particular task, of overcoming a challenge presented by a course of fire with speed and effectiveness.
 
I agree Justin I also prefer to hit what I'm aiming at.
Blasting with out aiming or hitting anything is a waste in my mind but there is probably someone out there who enjoys that..
I wish I could bring my short barreled PGO to the Republic of Grumpistan for some casual hand tossed clays.....I think you'd be surprised by the success rate and blasting clays with one hand will put a smile on even the most serious face!
 
You don't see crossbows, broadswords, single shot pistols, spears etc at any of those matches, either. But just because one weapon isn't suited for a particular type of use doesn't mean it's not useful at all. You don't see pistols being used for skeet for example.
Click to expand...
Pretty sure this has been hashed already, but I'll take my whack at it.

What, pray tell, is the PGO suited for, then, if not for SOMETHING that is covered in a shooting competition? It seems that there is a shotgun competition that covers just about any and all uses for a shotgun, and the PGO fares well in exactly NONE of them.

So, what is it good for?

It's good for breaching rounds and similar specialty uses, and it's good for deployment in VERY confined spaces. Home defense? Trust me, unless you live in a Yugo, your home is not this small. If you have to carry a SG in a vehicle, or use it to bust locks and hinges, the PGO is the way to go. How many of us have to do that? Realistically. Be honest.

A stocked shotgun (PG or non-PG) will be faster and more accurate all of the time, assuming you've practiced with it as much as you have a PGO. If you're not after speed and accuracy, what are you after? Slow misses?

Now, if you just want one because of the cool factor, have at it. I'm being serious, not sarcastic. I have a safe full of stuff I bought because it was cool, or a piece of history, or rare or unique. I'm all about that. "Just 'cuz" is a perfectly good reason to own stuff. But don't buy it thinking that it has much in the line of tactical value. Buy it (or make it) because you want to own what you consider to be a cool toy.

Mike
 
I have one PGO shotgun that's actually fun to shoot with normal loads. It's a Filippino monstrosity that was apparently originally built with a pistol grip. The grip is bulky, fat and wide and reminiscent of a squeezed fistful of clay. It's comfortable, though, and distributes the recoil forces to almost the entire surface of my hand.

I won't say that it's particularly accurate. It isn't.

It is fun to shoot, though.

The old Western Auto with an aftermarket grip, on the other hand, is pure pain. It's kinda like grabbing a hatchet by the blade and then having someone try to pound that blade through your hand. I'd replace that stock in a second if I could find a replacement.

Luckily, I have no investment in either of these guns except for some silver solder, about a bottle of Hoppe's No. 9, and a lot of elbow grease.
 
Nobody said that SBS didn't have utility; what was stated was that PGO shotguns are not routinely used in anger by competitors or by anyone that goes into harms way for a living (unless as a breaching tool).

You have yet to prove otherwise.

You can't jump into a PGO thread and then shift the dialog to NFA items to support your earlier contentions. That's just nonsensical.
Click to expand...

I'm not talking SBS's. *We'RE* not talking SBS's. We're talking PISTOL GRIP SHOTGUNS. And yes, several people here *have* stated or implied in no unclear terms that pistol grip shotguns were useless "because their opinion makes them so."

I have proven that to be false several times.

Pistol grip shotguns aren't commonly used in competition because *they offer no benefit over conventional weapons IN THOSE COMPETITIONS*. They aren't useless BECAUSE they aren't used IN THOSE COMPETITIONS, though. They're useful in other ways.

Whether a pistol grip shotgun is an NFA weapon makes no difference. It's a pistol grip shotgun being used in ways OTHER THAN THOSE COMPETITIONS mentioned earlier so it *HAS* got a use. It isn't useless.

Proven again.

It's here to discuss and share experience and knowledge, politely and like adults.
Click to expand...

So why are you not encouraging, helping, passing on wisdom etc etc etc instead of simply stating "I'm right and you're wrong so listen to me and do as I say?"

If you believe pistol grip shotguns to be useless, try telling us WHY you think so and what proof you have to lead us to believe so, too?

richard
 
Your definition of "proven" must be different than the common usage.

Pistol grip shotguns aren't commonly used in competition because *they offer no benefit over conventional weapons IN THOSE COMPETITIONS*.
Click to expand...
Correct. In fact, not only do they not offer benefit over fully-stocked shotguns, fully-stocked shotguns have advantages over the PGO gun. However, when you consider "competition", you're considering everything from trap and skeet (where no one would expect a PGO gun to fare well), to Three-Gun and various tactical shooting competitions, where you might expect them to be a factor, and most closely imitate the supposed real-life utility of these guns. They fail to fare well there, too.
They aren't useless BECAUSE they aren't used IN THOSE COMPETITIONS, though. They're useful in other ways.
Click to expand...
I asked this before. Like what? I can come up with breeching and special munitions, deploying from a vehicle, and Cool Guy Points.

Mike
 
But it doesn't change the basic fact that the niches where a PGO shotgun is useful are extremely limited, and even in those cases, there are better choices available.
Click to expand...

So? The uses of a Barrett .50bmg are more limited....are you pushing to have those done away with, too? Better choices? Your opinion?

In this thread there have already been posts from those with military experience (JShirley), police experience (Coronoch), hunting/ clay bird experience (Dave McCracken) and practically-oriented competition (myself.)
Click to expand...

And in all that, not ONE post saying why they think they're useless or proof that they are. I've proven my point. I've given several examples where pistol grip shotguns *are* useful. You guys have yet to give ONE reason why you think they aren't. All you've said so far is "other weapons are better".

Here's a simple question for you, Justin....settles the topic left or right. No middle ground.

How many shots have you put through a conventional stock shotgun in your life? Now do *you*, and answer it honestly if you can, do *YOU* believe that if you had fired that many rounds though a pistol grip shotgun that you would still not be able to hit a target? There's only two possible answers. Yes or no. Either the pistol grip shotgun always fires off in a random direction and it can't possibly be aimed no matter how much practice you have....or *you* simply suck with pistol grip shotguns and you don't want to admit that you simply have no experience with them.

Easy question.

rich
 
Where?

Not buttstock-with-pistol-grip; pistol grip ONLY. No buttstock, as shown in posts 1, 3, 4, and 27.
Click to expand...

See, there you go trying to redefine the topic yet again, Bernie. The topic isn't "guns like pictured in posts yadda yadda yadda". The topic is pistol grip shotguns in general.

Serbu. Cop. DEA. FBI. Secret Service. Israeli air security. Gang banger.

Proven it seven more times.

Pistol grip shotguns *ARE* useful in their own way....albeit in a narrow niche, they *ARE* useful in their own way. There are a hundred million pistol grips for shotguns on the market today *because* folks use them. Whether or not they use them to suit you or whether or not there's better guns for the job they do makes no difference. Folks use them.

I have a hundred million facts on my side, bud. You guys have your own personal opinion. I kind of doubt either side is going to influence the other.

rich
 
Wrong. You must have been asleep during Logics and Geometry. About all that has been proven so far is:

1. Some people like PGO shotguns for the grin factor.

2. PGO shotguns aren't much good for traditional shotgun competitions.
Click to expand...

Geometry? Huh?

#1: some folks like them for the compact, heavy firepower aspect as I noted. That note constitutes proof that they aren't "useless". Even one example of a pistol grip shotgun being used is proof that they aren't useless. That's logic. Where geometry factors in, I have no idea.

#2: a straw man argument that has no bearing on the discussion as also noted more than once.
 
Simple fact is, I like pistol grip shotguns. I can hit my targets all day long. I practiced enough to be able to do so. That's called an "informed opinion". Pistol grip shotguns *do*, in fact, have a use. They might be, in your opinions, lesser qualified than some other weapon to perform a particular function, but that makes no difference. Other weapons are equally or even more so limited in their uses.

I like them. I make them. I use them. Enough said.

richard
 
Geometry? Huh?
Click to expand...
Logics and geometry. Everything must be proven. I'm just pointing out that what you are offering are not proofs of anything.

As a debating tactic, well, it might work for a lawyer, but in a high school debating tournament, you would have lost.
or *you* simply suck with pistol grip shotguns and you don't want to admit that you simply have no experience with them.
Click to expand...
That's like saying to Lance Armstrong; "Sure, you can ride a bicycle, but I bet you would suck on a unicycle". Its a silly argument.
I like them. I make them. I use them. Enough said.
Click to expand...
More power to you. I'm happy you enjoy them, because that's what the shooting sports are all about, having fun.
 
I actually agree with one point that you're making, or...trying to make: the only way to prove it definitively is to have a bunch of newbies divided randomly between PGO and stocked shotguns, given equal training, and then put througha course of fire to see which does better.

Until we do that, we merely have to go with the facts that no one uses PGO shotguns for any practical purpose besides niche work, no one seems to shoot them particularly well when compared to stocked shotuns (regardless of level of training), and PGO shotguns are completely non-existent in any competitive shooting event, even ones that would be open to them and ones that would seem to play to their alleged strengths.

I'm confident drawing a conclusion from that, but you obviously aren't. This is the internet, you can believe what you want.
See, there you go trying to redefine the topic yet again, Bernie. The topic isn't "guns like pictured in posts yadda yadda yadda". The topic is pistol grip shotguns in general.
Click to expand...
Uh. No. Look at the OP. Look at (I think) every example put forward. Look at the pains taken to define what a PGO (Pistol Grip ONLY) means. We are not talking about fully stocked SGs with a pistol grip, and neither is the OP. If you are, you're arguing the wrong point.
The uses of a Barrett .50bmg are more limited....are you pushing to have those done away with, too?
Click to expand...
Straw man. No one is talking about banning PGOs. We're just saying that PGOs have no practicality outside of their niche, and that the niche in which they operate is vanishingly small.

Mike
 
That's like saying to Lance Armstrong; "Sure, you can ride a bicycle, but I bet you would suck on a unicycle". Its a silly argument.
Click to expand...

Nope. It's more along the lines of Lance Armstrong riding bicycles and then using that experience to try to argue that unicycles are useless".

And I disagree on the debate. I was in the debate club and debate team, hs and college, as you can probably tell ;)

I like them. I make them. I use them. Enough said.
Click to expand...

More power to you. I'm happy you enjoy them, because that's what the shooting sports are all about, having fun.
Click to expand...

Well, thank you, sir! I appreciate your opinion. I *do* have my fun. One of the reasons I still collect and shoot guns after thirty years.

All the best!

richard
 
Rand, my sarcastic comment above still stands.

None of the folks touting PGOs ever seem to turn up at the range. If they do not shoot these PGOs, how in the heck do they achieve any reasonable level of proficiency?

I bet it took me 300 rounds through a folder 870 shooting from the hip to get half as good as I was shooting the orthodox way.

Talk's cheap, as is Net claims.

Show me a pile of empties strewn round your ankles and some perforated targets and I'll be more likely to regard your input as worth believing.

And for those that may wonder if I am full of it, I can be found on the line at Prince George's County Trap and Skeet Center near Riverdale, MD most Friday morns around 11. Look for the big old guy with the grin.
 
I'll see if I can get pictures of me out shootin the PGO shotty. Luckily, i'm very apt to point shooting, especially from the hip.

Had I known this was gonna become a elitist competition, I wouldn't have shared my mod with you guys
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

L
  • Locked
Suggest a shotgun case that is suitable for a pistol grip 20" shotgun
Replies
10
Views
2K
Leadhead
L
T
  • Locked
Pistol grip Shotgun
Replies
13
Views
458
Sam1911
S
4
  • Locked
Westernfield?
Replies
3
Views
1K
JA
J
Rockrivr1
Plus and/or negative to adding a pistol grip to a home defense shotgun?
2
Replies
25
Views
1K
d2wing
d2wing
Rockrivr1
  • Locked
To pistol grip or not to pistol grip a home defense shotgun
Replies
15
Views
1K
Eightball
E
Back
Top