What to look for in a 1911

[Bozwell]

I was going to ask this question in another thread but figured I might as well start a new one rather than derailing that thread even further. I will probably pick up my first 1911 in about 6-12 months (I need to cool off on the spending for a bit - bought too many CZ's lately) and I'm having a hard time figuring out what I should be looking for in a first 1911. I don't mind spending a fair bit of money on a gun, but I don't want to spend an additional amount of money without getting some tangible return for it.

What makes it tough for me is that 1911's come in such a wide range of prices that I have a hard time finding that sweet spot between price and quality. I hear good things about RIA at the lowest price level, STI's Spartan looks like a decent deal at $650, Colt's seem like a solid choice above that, and beyond that Dan Wesson catches my eye (I've had great experiences with CZ in the past). I doubt I'd go above DW price levels for my first 1911, but that's already a ton of options and given that they all are basically the same fundamental design, I have a hard time distinguishing between them with it comes to these vast differences in cost.

So, what do you all look for in 1911's? Are the more expensive ones simply made with tighter tolerances than the cheaper ones? What's the practical effect of this - more reliable operation? Are there any "bells and whistles" for these guns that are worth looking for? Any info is appreciated.

 

[rellascout]

Well you have just opened up a can of worms. LOL

There are a lot of things to take into consideration:

What are you going to use the gun for? Range use, concealed carry home defense etc...?

How accurate does it need to be? 2" to 3" at 25 yards or do you need under 2" at 50 yards?

Do you want a fullsized Govt, commander or something even smaller?

Is this going to be an occasional shooter a under 500 rounds a year or is this going to be a high round count gun which you will shoot over 25,000 rounds through over its lifetime?

I personally like 1911 with modern sight cuts. Smaller GI sights are not hard to shoot with but they limit what you can swap out to if you want to upgrade. Lots of people want that old school 1911 look so there are still a lot of low end pistols with them but I hear a lot of people complain about them down the road and milling a slide can be spendy.

For me I would break it down like this.

If you want a low round count gun which really is not going to be run hard but you want to test the 1911 waters the then get an RIA tactical. Gets you a beavertail, novak like sights and should be accurte enough for plinking and self defense ranges. These are sub $500 guns.

If you want to step up the Spartan is nice but also look at the S&W 1911s and the SA loaded line. These all have proven track records of reliable performance with a step up in fit and finish from the RIA. The new Ruger is right there with these but it too new for me to recommend although reviews are positive. These are $600 to $700 guns.

Colt is the next step for me. You get a "real" Colt and they hold their value better than any other gun at the sub $1000 price range. You can get a std Govt model for $700 or step up to a Combat Elite or XSE for about $900.

Dan Wesson is a nice step up from there but personally I think they are over priced. I loved DW when they were sub $1000 guns. Now at $1500 for everything but the Guardian I think they have pushed out of their niche. When you get near $1800 I prefer Les Baer.

 

[TexasRifleman]

I'm gonna go make some popcorn, this will be good


I will say this. I just spent a week in a 1911 only class at Gunsite and I saw all manner of 1911's. After seeing what kinds of things people ran into I think the most important feature, at least if you plan to shoot it a lot, is fit and finish.

I saw blisters, ripped open skin, blood everywhere from pinching beavertails, hammer bite, sharp edges, overly aggressive checkering etc.

The guys I saw shooting most comfortably, and for the most part better, were shooting guns that had been somewhat hand finished and fit, or at least had sharp edges removed.

I personally don't buy into the "tighter is better" school of thought on 1911's but I know a lot of folks do.

 

[rellascout]

The guys I saw shooting most comfortably, and for the most part better, were shooting guns that had been somewhat hand finished and fit, or at least had sharp edges removed.

I agree with this but considering DW is the top of the OPs price range he really is not looking at guns which fit into this category. IMHO

 

[Bozwell]

Great info. I'm not looking for a carry gun at this time - I have a Pro-tek for that niche. I would probably be looking at the full size Gov't and it's likely to get moderate use. I shoot frequently, but as the number of guns I own continues to grow, each gun is seeing less usage. I'd guess I'd put upwards of 1000 rounds a year through it. I'd never rule out home defense as a backup option but primary usage would be a range gun.

As far as triggers go, am I likely to see the light, clean breaking trigger pull that 1911's are known for with all of those guns? Or will the RIA's and cheaper guns come with a rougher pull than, say, the Colts?

Edit: Just saw the last post and I do want to ensure that the gun is enjoyable for me to shoot. If the cheaper guns are likely to be uncomfortable to shoot causing blisters, hammer bite, etc., that would be enough in my book to rule them out. My question then would be what guns are you referring to that would have some hand fit and finishing and the sharp edges removed?

 

[JTQ]

First thing I look at are the sizes.
- Government = 5" barrel, full size grip.
- Commander = 4.25" barrel, full size grip. Some companies (Springfield and Kimber for example) use a 4" barrel in this class of pistols.
- Officer = 3.5" barrel, shorter grip (one round less)
- Others - you'll find 3" barrels on some guns and some makers offer 6" barrels; another popular size is the CCO which has a 4.25" barrel on an Officer size grip frame, etc.

The next thing I look for are the controls.
- The grip safety - GI or beavertail, or some modification of either.
- Thumb safety - single side or ambidextrous, and extended or standard.
- Sights - fixed or adjustable. Night sights or not. GI style or larger.
- Trigger - long, medium, short. Solid or with lightening holes.

Miscellaneous
- Barrel bushing - generally most have one, but some use a bull barrel. Most 4" or shorter guns don't have a bushing.
- Guide rod - short GI style or full length in one or two piece. Additionally, STI has the "RecoilMaster", yet another design.

Material and finish
- Carbon steel or stainless
- Blued, parkerized, or something else.

Internal safeties
- The original 1911 had no firing pin safety
- Colt, Auto Ordnance, ParaUSA, Sig, and Taurus use a Colt Series 80 style firing pin safety. This is activated/deactivated by the trigger.
- S&W and Kimber use a firing pin safety activated/deactivated by the grip safety. They are often called a Swartz safety.
- Springfield uses an internal key lock called the ILS. It is in the mainspring housing.

Country of origin.

The biggest things to consider, in my opinion, in your up front decision, is the size of pistol you want, the grip safety you can live with, and whether you want fixed or adjustable sights. In general (though not all), changing a grip safety from a GI style to a beavertail will cause frame modifications and some cost. If you go with adjustable sights and then decide you want fixed sights, your options are very limited since the slide is cut differently for adjustables than for fixed sights.

I generally like to have a Government size 5" or Commander size 4.25" gun, with a barrel bushing and fixed sights. As long as I have those things, I can probably adjust to the other things.

 

[rellascout]

Edit: Just saw the last post and I do want to ensure that the gun is enjoyable for me to shoot. If the cheaper guns are likely to be uncomfortable to shoot causing blisters, hammer bite, etc., that would be enough in my book to rule them out. My question then would be what guns are you referring to that would have some hand fit and finishing and the sharp edges removed?

He is talking about a 2 or 3 day pistol course where they fired 1,000+ rounds. This is heavy use where dehorning a pistol makes a huge difference. For a pistol that you intend to shoot 1,000 out of annually it is not nearly as important.

None of the guns which I have listen will be dehorned. Fit and finish will move up as you move up the food chain. IMHO what you pay for in a 1911 is better parts, more hand fitting and better finish as you move up in price. There are some exceptions like, cough kimber cough, but this generally holds true. The difference between a semi-custom Les Baer and full house custom from Yost is hand fitting and perfection in the finish and about $3000.

IMHO none of the guns on my list would be uncomfortable to shoot for 200 to 300 rounds. They all will wear some with time. All could be dehorned and refinished if you felt the need but I would not do it because of the cost on anything lower than the SA or a Colt.

 

[rellascout]

The biggest things to consider, in my opinion, in your up front decision, is the size of pistol you want, the grip safety you can live with, and whether you want fixed or adjustable sights. In general (though not all), changing a grip safety from a GI style to a beavertail will cause frame modifications and some cost. If you go with adjustable sights and then decide you want fixed sights, your options are very limited since the slide is cut differently for adjustables than for fixed sights.

I generally like to have a Government size 5" or Commander size 4.25" gun, with a barrel bushing and fixed sights. As long as I have those things, I can probably adjust to the other things.

I like this post a lot. Well stated.

Material and finish
- Carbon steel or stainless
- Blued, parkerized, or something else.

I would also add to this Cast vs forged. Plastic vs Mim vs Cast vs Forged. For some these things really matter for others not so much.

 

[G27RR]

My experiences on the sharp edge question:

I have four STI 1911s in the $900-$1,300 price range depending upon the model, and none have sharp edges.

I have a Colt Combat Elite (about $900-$1,000) without sharp edges, but I understand many Colt's have them, or did in the past. My Colt Defender, which is a couple years older, does have some sharpness on the lower edge of the slide, but it's never been a problem during shooting. (It was about $850 when I bought it)

My Springfield Range Officer does not have sharp edges. (About $750-$800)

My Kimber Super Carry Pro had a grip safety that would dig into the web of my hand and leave a snake bite looking bruise if I shot in the 200-300 round range at one time. Other than that, it was nicely smoothed. (But massively unreliable, so I sold it , with full disclosure, after Kimber couldn't fix it to my satisfaction)

PS - once you buy one, you may find this to be helpful...

http://www.10-8performance.com/pages/1911-User's-Guide.html

 

[rellascout]

I have four STI 1911s in the $900-$1,300 price range depending upon the model, and none have sharp edges.

I have a Colt Combat Elite (about $900-$1,000) without sharp edges, but I understand many Colt's have them, or did in the past. My Colt Defender, which is a couple years older, does have some sharpness on the lower edge of the slide, but it's never been a problem during shooting. (It was about $850 when I bought it)

My Springfield Range Officer does not have sharp edges. (About $750-$800)

Shoot 1000 rounds in a day or 2 with associated drills out of one of those pistols and what you define as a sharp edge might change.

I have found in extended shooting sessions things that I considered smooth became rough. LOL Again I will stress that many rounds with associated drills is serious business and what I would consider heavy duty.

 

[Zerodefect]

I can't tell you what you should look for in a 1911. There are too many variations. You should get one that fits you. And I think you should spend the extra time to properly fit a 1911 to your hand and eyes.

But I can tell you what I look for:
-No MIM, no cheap parts, no plastic. No excuses.
-Checkered front strap, checkered flat main spring housing. 20 or 25lpi
-stainless steel. with a black coating or Melonite/Hardhat etc.
-no ugly billboards or stupid catch phrases. No need for ".45ACP" in huge font on the slide either.
-long trigger
-popular sight dovetail cuts for better aftermarket sight selection
-good reviews/posts from more credible posters on e forums.
-decent customer service rep
-proper fit stainless steel barrels, no 2 piece barrels
-proper fit extractor
-proper slide/frame fit
-frame bow tie
-good looking thick bushing
-gi recoil rod
-good beavertail grip saftey
-lightweight skeleton hammer
-no fp safety
-opened ejection port
-media blasted metal finish, not brushed or polished
-not be (STI) Ugly

 

[TexasRifleman]

Edit: Just saw the last post and I do want to ensure that the gun is enjoyable for me to shoot. If the cheaper guns are likely to be uncomfortable to shoot causing blisters, hammer bite, etc., that would be enough in my book to rule them out. My question then would be what guns are you referring to that would have some hand fit and finishing and the sharp edges removed?

You don't have to spend big money to find a 1911 that has smooth parts fit, but you do want to personally hold the specific gun you want to buy. Many of the lower priced models have perfectly fine fit, but some are inconsistent from one gun to the next so it's important to be able to do a personal inspection before handing over your money in my opinion.

 

[G27RR]

Shoot 1000 rounds in a day or 2 with associated drills out of one of those pistols and what you define as a sharp edge might change.

I have found in extended shooting sessions things that I considered smooth became rough. LOL Again I will stress that many rounds with associated drills is serious business and what I would consider heavy duty.

Who said I haven't shot in 1911 classes or 500+ rounds at one session with one or more of the above?

 

[KenW.]

What to look for in a 1911

A Rampant Colt on the slide.

 

[rellascout]

Who said I haven't shot in 1911 classes or 500+ rounds at one session with one or more of the above?

IHMO my point is 100% valid. What feels good for short range sessions may not for long extended shooting. Do you think all those guys with blisters, cuts and such thought they had a sharp pistol before they went to the training? Why are you taking the comment so personally don't get your panties in a bunch....

 

[G27RR]

Your general point was fine, but since you chose to quote me and said my opinion might change if I had shot a 1,000 round class, you were directly implying I didn't have that sort of experience. I simply corrected you and didn't make it personal, no worries though.

 

[SSN Vet]

One key consideration, is whether or not having your 1911 set up for a high hand hold with your thumb riding on the safety is important to you.

Another, is whether or not your hand size and shape make you prone to hammer bite or not and whether certain style grip safeties rub you the wrong way (literally).

Unfortunately, you can't really know either of these until you've shot Some different 1911s.

I honestly think that you can't go wrong with a S80 Colt, as I have found them to run 100%, right out of the box, with very nice triggers. But an STI Spartan or a Springfield RO would also be good choices. All three can be had in the ~$700 range.

I personally would not go cheaper than tat (but tgen again, I'll take quality over quauntity any day).

I'm also not interested in having to pump several hundred dollars of ammo to "break in" a pistol, before I can get the manufacturer to make right any issues. And I'm not in to external extractors, oddball slide/frame geometries that won't work with aftermarket parts, ambidextrous safeties or full length guide rods.

 

[9mmepiphany]

My experiences on the sharp edge question:

I have four STI 1911s in the $900-$1,300 price range depending upon the model, and none have sharp edges.

We had a couple of STIs during the class and the was a huge difference between them.

The 5" STI Trojan ran beautifully. Even their version of Chain Link texture on the front strap had had it's high points blended slightly and the adjustable rear sight blade didn't snag or gouge my hand during clearance drills. However, their 9mm VIP was not as kind to another of our shooters. It had numerous sharp edges that started turning his hand into hamburger during the first day. It was interesting that price had little relationship to exterior finish. We had a RIA 5" that was unusually well fitted...the on-site gunsmith agreed...and it just needed a few sharp edges knocked down to stop drawing blood.

I think the lesson to be taken is that the less you spend, the more you need to look closely at how well the gun was finished...but when spending more, you should at least handle a example of the gun you are considering before deciding. It isn't a bad idea to put aside some money to have the exterior cleaned up of sharp edges as you look at the lower priced models

 

[Zerodefect]

Fitting the 1911 to your hand deosn't cost much. Just need tools that you may allready have anyways.

I would never call a good, well fit pistol comfortable. It's more about performance. My best 1911's are not as comfortable as my slower 1911's. Glocks feel like a brick, but in my opinion, shoot very well.

Cheap stuff:
-Arkansas stone fine
-India stone medium
-small files
-dremel tool with sanding drum, cut off wheel, and polishing kit

I cut the trailing edge of my thumb safety paddle down into a tear drop shape. This allows me to hold my thumb more forward and less up for a better grip and recoil control.

I also cut the flat cover part of the thumb safety so it has rounded edges. I have the bad habit of pressing on the saftey too hard under stress in competition,

I may round the edges of the slide serations on the left side of the slide if they are too sharp. Open up the magwell. Cut an extended mag release button down to a better CCW shape.

Stone every rough edge inside the pistol so all the guts slide around perfectly. Especialy the sides of the disco.

Then I send the pistol away to CCR or Severns to get refinished after i've hacked it all up and put scratches all over the place..

 

[rellascout]

The 5" STI Trojan ran beautifully. Even their version of Chain Link texture on the front strap had had it's high points blended slightly and the adjustable rear sight blade didn't snag or gouge my hand during clearance drills. However, their 9mm VIP was not as kind to another of our shooters. It had numerous sharp edges that started turning his hand into hamburger during the first day. It was interesting that price had little relationship to exterior finish. We had a RIA 5" that was unusually well fitted...the on-site gunsmith agreed...and it just needed a few sharp edges knocked down to stop drawing blood.

This is very true IMHO Les Baers are very sharp even though they claim to be smoothed for carry. I could grate cheese with the front grip strap checkering.

Your general point was fine, but since you chose to quote me and said my opinion might change if I had shot a 1,000 round class, you were directly implying I didn't have that sort of experience. I simply corrected you and didn't make it personal, no worries though.

No harm no foul. It was a very tongue and cheek comment note the in there. I did not intent for it to imply only to you but speaking more generally about what and what isn't considered sharp.

 

[HDCamel]

Why would you buy anything but a GI configuration for your first 1911?
Start at the baseline THEN decide if you need any bells and whistles.

In the GI market, Colts are the safest (though not necessarily the best) choice. They have the pedigree, the best resale value, and good customer service. They're also not prohibitively expensive.

 

[dacotah]

For a first 1911, I'd go just one step up from the GI. Springfield has their mil-spec and Rock Island has the tactical -- both good choices that give you a step up from the gi sights.

 

[MachIVshooter]

First 1911?

Mine was a Colt MK IV, and I still have it. But you're unlikely to find one for $400 as I did.

The RIA and Springfield GI are decent no-frills guns for under $500.

The Springfield Mil-spec is a step up

Then come the Springfield loaded and Remington R1 in the $650 range

For a little more, you're into a basic Kimber Custom II or Colt.

But as has been echoed, you need to decide what it is you want. I personally like GI-style guns with single-sided safeties, fixed sights and a spur hammer. If I were to buy another 1911 today, it'd be the Remington R1 or Colt Series 70.

 

[longhair75]

Thanks for all of the responses in this thread. I have been shopping a 1911 myself. So far, I am leaning towards the Colt Gold Cup.

 

[G27RR]

Thanks for all of the responses in this thread. I have been shopping a 1911 myself. So far, I am leaning towards the Colt Gold Cup.

That's a good choice, too.