What type of sights (non-optic/dot) are fastest to acquire targets?

[Kynoch]

What type of sights (non-optic/dot) are fastest to acquire targets?

We have this rimfire steel plate shooting competition at my club and I want to prepare a .22 rifle to shoot this match. We shoot from 7 yards to about 45 yards, timed -- fairly easy targets, the faster the better. The stock sights on my venerable Remington 550-1 are very dated but I love the rifle and shoot it well so I would like to update it.

What do I look for? The rules say "no optics or electronics" but fiber optics are OK. Some people I have talked to say a "large ghost ring sight", others have said "buckhorn" or "express" sights. Thanks.

 

[briansmithwins]

Ghost ring or HK type with the front sight surrounded by a circle or large ears. For close targets you simple get the front sight ears onto the target and press the trigger. Don't try to look for the front sight or line up the rear, it only takes longer to shoot.

As targets get smaller and/or farther away, you start using the front sight post, then start aligning the front and rear sights.

Learning when to transition for a given target's size and distance is a skill picked up with practice.

BSW

 

[dprice3844444]

short of affixing picatinny rails to the gun,you have no other options than stock.
you could get a ruger 10-22 and affix a match grade weighted barrel to your liking.after market items are plentiful for them.

 

[dprice3844444]

your only option is possibly installing a rear rail/front rail and mount your own sights,eotech,etc.
http://www.e-sarcoinc.com/upgradeyourartacticalaccessoriesfromsarco.aspx
if ar-15 sights work for you on other guns,you might try adapting these as a low cost alternative

 

[BCRider]

I shoot cowboy action with a buckhorn rear sight. It's a PITA for fast target acquisition because the large rear plate covers up so much of the target.

I've also shot a few with a rather large rear mounted ghost ring. I'm talking about the GR being back on the receiver so it's like the setup found on some military main rifles like the old Lee Enfield Mk IV or the M1 Garrand. That setup is very fast if the comb of the stock is set up so bringing the rifle to your cheek bone places your eye right behind the GR.

If the GR combined with correct comb height were to be combined with a fiber optic front sight I can't imagine a faster sight picture that doesn't involve a red dot or 1-4 illuminated scope.

And if the comb and sights were such that you could mount them spaced off the receiver and barrel by 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch you'd remove the bulk of the receiver and barrel from the sight picture as well. And that would open up the view for finding the targets even better.

The main key to either these "plain iron" or a scope or red dot is the comb and sight line though. If you can't bring the rifle up and position it so your eye finds the sights fast then you're stuck before you even start. Having the sights of whatever sort line up with your eye when the rifle is brought up and mounted home to your shoulder and cheek is the single most important factor to a fast first shot. Ask any shotgunner that does any clay shooting about this.

 

[henschman]

Aperture sights with not too small of an aperture. Think more the hunting or military type aperture than target type. For field use I agree with your friends who said buckhorn or express... they are much better for low light or hard-to-see targets... but that's not really an issue in competition.

 

[TexasPatriot.308]

Ghost ring or different "peep sights" vary in so many ways, the ghost ring makes it very easy but you have a large area....I qualified in the military using standard sighs on M14 and M16...no problem, guess I am old school cause nowadays the troops are accustomed to dot optic sights.....I have a problem using dot optics...guess just different views (pardon the pun)

 

[Kynoch]

Ghost ring or HK type with the front sight surrounded by a circle or large ears. For close targets you simple get the front sight ears onto the target and press the trigger. Don't try to look for the front sight or line up the rear, it only takes longer to shoot.

As targets get smaller and/or farther away, you start using the front sight post, then start aligning the front and rear sights.

Learning when to transition for a given target's size and distance is a skill picked up with practice.

BSW

Thanks for your input.

 

[Kynoch]

short of affixing picatinny rails to the gun,you have no other options than stock.
you could get a ruger 10-22 and affix a match grade weighted barrel to your liking.after market items are plentiful for them.

I don't know about HK/ghost ring type sights but I can always attach a William's receiver mounted sight and a fiber optic front sight.

 

[Kynoch]

I shoot cowboy action with a buckhorn rear sight. It's a PITA for fast target acquisition because the large rear plate covers up so much of the target.

I've also shot a few with a rather large rear mounted ghost ring. I'm talking about the GR being back on the receiver so it's like the setup found on some military main rifles like the old Lee Enfield Mk IV or the M1 Garrand. That setup is very fast if the comb of the stock is set up so bringing the rifle to your cheek bone places your eye right behind the GR.

If the GR combined with correct comb height were to be combined with a fiber optic front sight I can't imagine a faster sight picture that doesn't involve a red dot or 1-4 illuminated scope.

And if the comb and sights were such that you could mount them spaced off the receiver and barrel by 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch you'd remove the bulk of the receiver and barrel from the sight picture as well. And that would open up the view for finding the targets even better.

The main key to either these "plain iron" or a scope or red dot is the comb and sight line though. If you can't bring the rifle up and position it so your eye finds the sights fast then you're stuck before you even start. Having the sights of whatever sort line up with your eye when the rifle is brought up and mounted home to your shoulder and cheek is the single most important factor to a fast first shot. Ask any shotgunner that does any clay shooting about this.

Thanks for the input -- you make some very important points. Some .22s are fairly worthless to use with iron sights (even though they come with them) because their comb height is set-up for scopes.

 

[BCRider]

Those set up with the high comb might be just the hot setup for a higher mount rear ghost and matching height front fiber. It would still qualify as "plain iron sights" but you'd have a marvelous field of view through the rear ring if it lined up naturally with your eye when the cheek bone is on the comb.

 

[Kynoch]

Those set up with the high comb might be just the hot setup for a higher mount rear ghost and matching height front fiber. It would still qualify as "plain iron sights" but you'd have a marvelous field of view through the rear ring if it lined up naturally with your eye when the cheek bone is on the comb.

That's a very interesting view. For example, I really like the older Marlin 60s with the 22" barrels. I would take one over a 10/22 (which I do own) anytime. The problem is their high comb (and probably the shape of my face.)

But you're right -- if one could figure out how to elevate both, it would likely make a very cool set-up.

I'm curious -- would this Marble Bullseye sight be any good with a fiber optic front sight?

Obviously it wouldn't be used in a bullseye manner, but if the inner ring was painted red along with a green FO front sight, I thought it might be a fairly fast set-up? Thanks again.

 

[briansmithwins]

I've never understood the attraction of mounting aperture sights forward of the action. Aperture sights need to be close to the eye so the aperture appears to be fuzzy and the front sight is easily visible through it.

Putting them so far forward just makes them an obstruction to the line of sight. If I have to put a rear sight on the barrel, make it a tangent sight.

BSW

 

[Normandy]

I agree that "ghost ring" sights are quick and easy. Second best is the sights on the M1 rifle (Garand), with aperture rear and post up front.

 

[natman]

If you want fast and are willing to trade a little bit of precision, then Ghost Ring sights are the way to go. Just put the front sight on the target and shoot.

 

[geologist]

Ghost ring.



Then express sights as the second fastest iron sight.

 

[Kynoch]

I've never understood the attraction of mounting aperture sights forward of the action. Aperture sights need to be close to the eye so the aperture appears to be fuzzy and the front sight is easily visible through it.

Putting them so far forward just makes them an obstruction to the line of sight. If I have to put a rear sight on the barrel, make it a tangent sight.

BSW

It also doesn't take advantage of all the available sight radius. I guess they mount the sights so far forward so that a scope could be mounted without removing the rear sight?

 

[crstrode]

Orlob ocluder
Fantastic

 

[BCRider]

I don't think that the Marbles Bullseye sight will work as fast as a well positioned rear of the receiver ghost ring. It's far enough forward that you still have to line up the target, front sight and rear sight. The point of the ghost ring back close to your eye and mounted so that your eye is naturally placed to instantly and repeatedly look through it means you only need to worry about finding the target and front sight and lining those two up instead of a third one.

The nice thing with a ghost ring is again that it doesn't obscure anything. it's dark enough to see but fuzzy enough that it's like you're able to see through it too.

The neat thing is that you can try it out before you buy anything. Use some thin metal to make a "tape on" rear peep where the viewing disc is a little larger with about a 1/8 hole. Then cut the surrounding metal down to make it more of a ghost ring. Being soft metal and just taped on temporaily you can play with setting it to suit the comb height of your rifle. For a couple of cents worth of tape and some metal that you were going to toss into the recycle bin anyway you can get a feel for if a rear peep or more of a ghost ring is going to work for you before you lay down any funds. You could even make up something similar to that Marbles sight and tape it onto the barrel more or less where it would go and see if you agree with what we're saying about barrel sights vs close to the eye aperture or ghost ring sights. And all for what is essentially free other than some time tinkering with making the soft metal sights to try.

I did something similar using some of the perforated plumbing strap metal as a trial to see if I would like this same idea of a setup.

To blacken the metal you use just hold it near a candle or butane lighter and soot it up.

 

[JeeperCreeper]

I've never understood the attraction of mounting aperture sights forward of the action. Aperture sights need to be close to the eye so the aperture appears to be fuzzy and the front sight is easily visible through it.

Putting them so far forward just makes them an obstruction to the line of sight. If I have to put a rear sight on the barrel, make it a tangent sight.

BSW

I thought the same thing until I started putting alot of rounds downrange with my Arisaka sniper. It has the aperature/peep-ish style in front of the action. It might not be as accurate at long range as my Springfield '03 with rear peeps, but it does make accurate and fast shots much, much, much easier. I guess it all depends on taste and use.

Having said that, I have always been a fan of ghost ring/apperature/peep style sight systems, as long as you can get them to line up correctly as an aftermarket piece.

 

[briansmithwins]

Tangent sights need to be mounted forward of the action because of how they work: you line up the top of the rear sight with the top of the front sight. The rear needs to be far enough from your eye that the focus can be on it.

With aperture sights the rear should be a fuzzy circle, with the front sight post (or front sight protector) centered in it.

Aperture sights have the advantage of making the front sight sharper in focus, but they also make the image dimmer too, which is why they suck at night. Ghost rings aren't as clear during daylight but make for better shooting in dim conditions.

As usual, TANSTAAFL.

BSW

 

[natman]

Ghost rings aren't as clear during daylight but make for better shooting in dim conditions.

 

[briansmithwins]

Maybe I should have said it more like: Aperture sights with tiny holes are great for sunny days on the range because they sharpen the image of the front sight and target. Unfortunately, bad men and animals that need putting down often don't have the courtesy of only appearing in bright daylight and standing still.

Ghost ring aperture sights don't offer as good of aiming potential as small aperture sights, but they work much better in dim and dark conditions, or when speed is required.

BSW

 

[henschman]

To make things more clear, we should probably get our terminology straight. "Peep sights" and "aperture sights" are different terms for the same thing -- a sight setup for which the rear sight is a hole that you look through, and is close to the eye. "Ghost ring sights" are just a type of aperture/peep sights that have a very large hole for the rear sight.

Aperture sizes vary from tiny target apertures to medium sized military apertures, to slightly bigger hunting apertures, to full-on ghost ring apertures with a huge hole. The smaller the aperture, the easier it is to shoot with precision, but the slower you will be at sight target transitions, and the worse it will perform in low light.

True ghost ring apertures are primarily seen on shotguns. They are also sometimes seen on hunting rifles intended for very close range shots in dense brush or on dangerous game. Target apertures are reserved for competition rifles in disciplines for which speed is not a big concern. For you, speed is a big concern, but you still need to retain some degree of precision, and low-light performance isn't a big concern. So something with a medium sized aperture, like a hunting or military oriented one, would be ideal.

One thing to note is that most target type aperture sights, like Williams and Lyman, accept interchangeable screw-in aperture inserts, so you can use whatever size suits your purpose. Using them without an insert will leave a large rear hole that would probably be perfect for what you want.

 

[Inebriated]

I'm quicker with open sights. Think AK.

Commit to one and practice with it.. It really does not matter as long as you get the gun setup and the repetitions in so that when you bring the gun up, your sights are where they need to be.