What weapon in searching the caves?

[LASur5r]

Fellow THR's,
My son spent his last year in Iraq...101st Airborne. He saw desert fighting and night raids in their houses. Mostly he used his SAW in the desert and M4 in the night ops. He has returned back to Fort Campbell, Kentucky, but feels that it is not over...he has re upped and is going to head towards Afghanistan shortly. He is concerned about the mountainous fighting and asks you all what is your weapon of choice when you have to trek all over mountains in the attempt to find Bin Laden?
What would be your weapon of choice?
He thanks you folks in general and in advance for your help.

 

[entropy]

His weapons choices will be dictated by mission specifics vs. availibility of weapons to/within the unit. The 101st is lucky in that they usually have the state-of-the-art stuff first out of the Divisions. Given the options most probably available to them, I'd go with an M4 with an EOtech holosight on it, Issue supressor (Quickly Detachable), AN/PVS-14 NVD coupled with an AN/PAQ-5 (Thanks Jeff White!) night vision/target aquisition system, and a SOCCOM .45 with rail mounted laser (useful in conjuntion with PVS-14's). An 870 or M590 slung on a *Skunk Approved* Tactical sling off to the side, in addition to the M4 and SOCCOM would be most welcome,also.

One of these would would be nice, too!

 

[OEF_VET]

Which unit will he be going to Afghanistan with? I'm assuming he reenlisted to go to another post, because AFAIK, the 101st will be staying put for quite some time. I'd say it's a fair assumption to say he re-upped for Hawaii and will begoing with the 25th ID, but I could be mistaken.

Having been to Assghanistan with the 101st (Rakkasans rule!), I can tell you he's not going to have a lot of leeway as to what weapons he gets to hump around with him, but he should already know that. If he goes with a light unit, he'll be stuck with either an M-4, M-4/203 combo, M-249 SAW, or M-240. If he's really lucky and goes to sniper school, they may even let him tote around the M-21. Some units currently in the 'stan are also using the new shotgun that mounts under the M-4, like an M-203. I believe it's the 10th Mtn. that's testing those right now. If he gets assigned to a crew-served weapon, he'll most likely get to hump an M-9.

Now, if it were my choice as to which weapon I could take with me, it would be mission dependant. A lot of the engagements in Afghanistan are going to occur outside of the effective range of the M-4 and its' 5.56 round. During Operation Anaconda, engagements were from one mountaintop to the next, with the AQ/Taliban using Dshk's and RPG's. For that scenario, I'd like something in .308 with a long enough range to make it useful, something like an M-14, FAL or G-3, or an AH-64D Longbow Apache.

For the times when he'll be doing house searches, an M-4 is sufficient. Yeah, somebody's going to come along and say it's still too big, you need a pistol. Well, having BTDT, I can tell you, the lentgh of your weapon is going to be aminor concern. A more important concern is going to be the bulky body armor and MOLLE gear you wear. Add to that your radio if you have one, Kevlar, assault pack and other BS and a short barrelled carbine doesn't add much.

Frank

 

[JamisJockey]

I'd agree. Super-dooper-doodaded M4, hopefully supressed, and a shotgun in close proximity to ones person. Maybe a supressed UMP in .45 if the quarters are very tight.

 

[LASur5r]

That's it

OEF-Vet---
That's what I'm talking about. What you would take.
He said that he knows that the typical trooper takes whatever he is issued but he sure wishes that he could take something with an effective range of about 500 yards plus because he expects to be in the mountains searching the caves for our friend Bin Laden....while he's humping it he expects to run into some long range engagements with the Taliban folks or at least people sympathetic to them.
He has asked some of the Afghan vets and they suggested longer reach weapons as opposed to CQB stuff.
Thanks to all you guys for your input. I know he takes what he gets, but you can stop a soldier from wishing.

 

[entropy]

Oh, we want a do it all weapon? Well, until the M82pdw is available,, I'd be just fine with an M21, or M16A2. I can comfortably put rounds MOA(thats Minute of Afghan) at 600 yds. with the A2. Burst feature sucks, though. Detachable Eotech and 10X Leupold, Zeiss, or Swarovski, both zeroed with the best QD bases I could find, hard cases for the optics, plus all the other gear I mentioned earlier.(minus the M4, natch.)
Isn't it funny how the M21's and .45 keep coming back to the battlefield after being 'phased out'? Something for the Procurement boys to consider....

This would be useful for whangin' away from mountain to mountain, but kinda awkward in the caves......

 

[Blackhawk 6]

If I were to go back to Afghanistan I would want to use what I used on my previous tour, the M-4. Despite its critics, every M-4 I observed performed well and I have heard no first-hand complaints from anyone who actually makes their living with a rifle.

OEF-VET is correct regarding some of the distances involved, especially during Operation Anaconda. However, for the majority of the situations I encountered the M-4 was more than adequate. The M-4 will be more than adequate for caves.

For those times when a little more range was called for an ACOG in an ARMS #19 mount would do fine.

 

[G1FAL]

Does the army let people take personal weapons on deployment? One of the units I was in in the Corps told us we could take anything we wanted if the balloon goes up, just remember you're the one that has to carry it (the example they gave us: "You can take a friggin samurai sword if you want to, but YOU'RE the one thats humpin it!"). The other unit I was in, they never said we couldnt, and we never pressed them about it too much, and didnt flaunt anything 'extra' that was floating around.

If he's gonna be in caves, and IS allowed to take personal weapons, then my suggestion would be some type of .45. Five or six boxes of ammo should get him thru till you can mail him some more. And there are units that are issuing .45's, so maybe he can trade with some other guys, or otherwise 'acquire' .45 ammo.

Maybe a shotgun, with a folding stock? Never used a shotgun in CQB, so I cant speak from experience here.

 

[artherd]

What would I take? I would take an AC-130 Spectre.

OK, what would I really take that's man-portable? I'm not in any military, but I would take my:

Armalite AR-30 in .338 Lapua Magnum.

Effective range is THE SAME AS .50BMG! (at about 2,000 yards both .50 and .338LM go sub-sonic.)

The best part? The rifle weighs 12lbs. That's doable when you're humping around, even adding 3lbs for a scope and BADGER rings. The entire WS is about 1/3rd the weight of a Barrett .50, and for personel, it's the same.


Downsides:
1) You will need to send him CASES of .338LM ammo from Lapua or Black Hills (BH is a DOD contractor, maybe can get some on a GOV'T PO). It is expensive, but it is all match-grade.

2) It's as heavy as two un-scoped M4s. He should probally come with a Sure-Fire suppressed M4 as well, the AR-30 will be useless for house-clearing and caves. It will be a GODSEND on the way there and back though.

Upsides: Dorks with AKs, and even bolt .308s, will be no match for your son. He will simply be able to laugh at them and then shoot them if he is far enough away (1,000yds or more.) a 1,000yard shot is duck soup with .338LM. At 600 you can all but ignore wind, and pick an eye-socket.

 

[entropy]

"What would I take? I would take an AC-130 Spectre."

OK, you fly it, and winstonsmith and I will run the guns!

Might get a little hairy flying in those caves, though!

 

[Wildalaska]

One of my customers is there now with I think its the 501st out of Ft Rich, AK...we redid their sniper rifles before they left...

He wrote us a quick note, he had at the time one kill at 300 yards with an M14 and ACOG...

He said for cave searching he wishes he had his 45, but the Army wont let him..

He really likes that full auto grenade launcher...forget the designation...

I gave a copy of his letter to one of the owners of Trijicon today...field test report

WildhopehestayshealthyAlaska

 

[Stand_Watie]

I'm not qualified to offer your son advice, but I'd like you to pass on a slap on the back for me if you get the chance. Re-upping to go to Afghanistan after a tour in Iraq is about as committed as it gets. One of my little bro's friends is doing the same thing. Tell him to keep safe, and if he's ever in north/east Texas swing by my place for a beer.

 

[cpileri]

smith vortex

I do know that the Smith Vortex flash suppressor is in trials on the m4 for use in caves and houses. I am helping keep track of soldier's experiences with them for both the manufacturer and the procurement liaison for the DOD in Ft. Benning.
If the soldiers like them, the Army will hopefully grant a contract to Smith. Mr. Smith swears that the M4 can practially be fired in a closet, and certainly in a cave in total darkness without blinding muzzle flash using the Vortex.
Does your son or any of his buddies have any comments on the Vortex i can pass along?
C-

 

[Joe Mamma]

"He really likes that full auto grenade launcher...forget the designation..."

Uh, who WOULDN'T like a full auto grenade launcher!

Joe Mamma

 

[Zundfolge]

If I had to outfit myself for cave fighting I'd take an M4 converted to 6.8mm and one of these new shotguns that mounts like an M203.

Add to that the best night vision gear you can get (if possible with Thermal Imaging of some sort)

 

[VNgo]

Given that running out of ammo might be a serious concern in cave fighting, I'd take a Stoner SR-47 (M4 modified to fire 7.62x39mm ammo from AK-47 mags) with a Trijicon red-dot sight, a Gemtech M4-96D suppressor and a Heckler & Koch AG36 grenade launcher.

 

[Brian Williams]

An integregally<sp> suppressed MP5-10. My big question is what kind of hearing protection are these guys using.

 

[MrMurphy]

Actually, flamethrowers and grenades work well for clearing caves, as the guys in WW2 found out. Of course, they'd never allow them nowadays.....but, they would work.


The M4, suppressed with all the scopes and fun stuff would be ok for cave work, preferably with a pistol backup, and a 12ga if you could get it.

 

[fix]

Given that running out of ammo might be a serious concern in cave fighting, I'd take a Stoner SR-47 (M4 modified to fire 7.62x39mm ammo from AK-47 mags)

You're in a cave. The enemy is in there with you. He uses 7.62x39. You use 7.62x39. You run out of ammo in the middle of the fight. I see two options here.

1) He's not out of ammo.
2) He's out of ammo.

Either way, having ammo compatability with him does you no good. Is there something I'm missing here?

 

[Zedicus]

Simple, you can use any ammo that deceased enemys may have had left.
Or any that some may have dropped.

 

[litman252]

I'll second the pat on the back from me comment.
It's guys like your son that my sig. line is for.
Tony

 

[RustyHammer]

I guess a NUKE is out of the question?

 

[George Hill]

Krinkov

 

[fix]

Simple, you can use any ammo that deceased enemys may have had left.

Let's hope you killed some.

Or any that some may have dropped.

Let's hope they dropped some.

I wish CQB could be that simple. You could, in theory, break out your reloading equipment in the cave too I suppose.

 

[Orion]

The issue stuff is pretty good FWIW. if I had to clear a cave I think I'd be using a Beretta 1201fp. easy to swing and devastating in a closed environment. Also light and small enough to sling when you dont need it.