What Would You Do....

[Kleanbore]

This kid wanted money, and was making a point. Was pointing the gun at her a deadly threat? Absolutely. But it was used as a tool of intimidation.

That is the very definition of armed robbery; it is a crime of violence against persons, and it justifies the use of deadly force.

 

[WrongHanded]

That is the very definition of armed robbery; it is a crime of violence against persons, and it justifies the use of deadly force.

But it doesn't necessarily require the use of deadly force. And whether or not the use of deadly force would ultimately be deamed justified or not, would depend on a jury.

It's all very well to say that had a bystander had a gun, they would have been justified in shooting this armed robber the moment he pointed his own gun at the clerk. But in reality, that bystander would very likely be going to court and have their life turned upside down because of it.

So "justified"? Yes. Necessary or smart? No.

 

[Kleanbore]

It's all very well to say that had a bystander had a gun, they would have been justified in shooting this armed robber the moment he pointed his own gun at the clerk. But in reality, that bystander would very likely be going to court and have their life turned upside down because of it.

That is true for every use of force incident.

 

[WrongHanded]

That is true for every use of force incident.

Right. But this thread is NOT about every use of force incident. It's about this one specific incident.

 

[Kleanbore]

Right. But this thread is NOT about every use of force incident. It's about this one specific incident.

My comment was about every use of force incident.

Whenever one draws a gun, one enters into a terrible abyss. Sometimes, it may be necessary.

Regarding this incident, my main concerns would be about bringing about an outcome that would not have otherwise occurred.

As I and Jeff white have said, intervention would not be wise at all.

 

[WrongHanded]

My comment was about every use of force incident.

Whenever one draws a gun, one enters into a terrible abyss. Sometimes, it may be necessary.

Regarding this incident, my main concerns would be about bringing about an outcome that would not have otherwise occurred.

As I and Jeff white have said, intervention would not be wise at all.

Understood. My comments have been based on my observations of this particular incident. And what I would or would not do, and why or why not.

 

[Old Dog]

Am I the only one that noticed that the robber's pistol suffered a failure to eject upon firing into the ceiling? He noticed -- immediately after firing, he grasped the slide and ejected the spent casing.

There was a window of opportunity there.

 

[The Night Rider]

Am I the only one that noticed that the robber's pistol suffered a failure to eject upon firing into the ceiling? He noticed -- immediately after firing, he grasped the slide and ejected the spent casing.

There was a window of opportunity there.

I noticed.

Most people don't even think about what they would do in that situation. Most people don't think it would ever happen to them. So when (if) it does they freeze.

 

[DeepSouth]

To answer the OP, I would have put my hand in my pocket, in the unlikely event it wasn’t already there.
Then I’d have started praying he didn’t give me reason to pull my hand out of my pocket.

 

[Blue Jays]

"…I would have put my hand in my pocket, in the unlikely event it wasn’t already there…"

Exactly. This is a perfect example where pocket carry is ideal. No unnatural or rapid movements needed.

It could even be quietly drawn and held hidden against a thigh ready to be instantaneously brought into action if the dumb adolescent robber decided to further engage rather than fleeing the store.

 

[Kleanbore]

Exactly. This is a perfect example where pocket carry is ideal. No unnatural or rapid movements needed.

Try it in FoF exercises and see how it works.

I carried in a pants pocket before I had taken some training. Never since, except for a backup in the left side for accessing while strapped into a car.

Putting one's hands in the pockets of a jacket can be done without drawing much attention. Pants pocket--not so much.

The real problem shows up drawing while moving.

 

[Blue Jays]

Did any of us say pants pocket?

 

[The Night Rider]

Pocket carry is a thing and people know it.

Putting your hand in a pocket in a threatening situation isn't normal and people, especially people who put other people in threatening situations, know it.

I ran into a tweaker one night and things got a little tense and I put my hand in my pocket and he knew exactly what I was doing and he called me on it

 

[Kleanbore]

Did any of us say pants pocket?

It took place in short sleeve weather.

Placing one's hands in a jacket pocket indoors or when the temperature is not cold can precipitate an attack.

 

[DeepSouth]

Putting one's hands in the pockets of a jacket can be done without drawing much attention. Pants pocket--not so much.

Bull.

 

[Kleanbore]

Bull.

You may be right. Reaching into a jacket pocket may also cause a defender to draw.

Both hands in a jacket pocket, out doors on a cold day, would likely be more innocuous.

 

[The Night Rider]

Putting one's hands in the pockets of a jacket can be done without drawing much attention. Pants pocket--not so much.

Bull.

Care to elaborate DeepSouth?

What's the first thing a cop does when he interacts officially with a citizen? "Do me a favor sir, take your hands out of your pockets."

Any time anyone approached me at work (security) that was the first thing I said. "I need to see your hands Sir/Ma'am."

 

[Blue Jays]

In this example…the criminal was an unseasoned 12-y.o. adolescent robber.
The innocent bystanders were behind him and conceivably could have drawn.
Certainly nice to have a firearm in hand if he did opt to get crazy at his inaugural robbery.

 

[Old Dog]

Here's a tactic:
https://www.handgunsmag.com/editorial/covertly-drawing-your-handgun-can-be-a-lifesaver/357292

Here's a situation with a similarity to the OP:

 

[DeepSouth]

Care to elaborate DeepSouth?

What's the first thing a cop does when he interacts officially with a citizen? "Do me a favor sir, take your hands out of your pockets."

Any time anyone approached me at work (security) that was the first thing I said. "I need to see your hands Sir/Ma'am."

Okay, I’ll elaborate. Against my better judgment.

Their are certainly times when a guy with his hands in his pocket is obvious, would draw unwanted attn, and frankly be a cause for concern. Especially if he’s approaching someone.

However, their are many times it can just be some casual guy, minding his own business…. Some dude pumping gas, leaning on his car with one hand in a pocket and a phone in the other, that can be fairly inconspicuous. Standing in a gas station line, like the OP’s video, it can be pulled off. And rather easily, you’ll probably still get a second take from other people that pocket carry a lot, cops, and people with fairly high levels of situational awareness. But that’s a small fraction of people, and most of those aren’t robbing gas stations.


I keep my right hand at least partially in my pocket a LOT and almost never get a second look. But yeah, I’d imagine if I walked up to a cop with my hand in my pocket I’d expect him to draw on me and I wouldn’t blame him. It has a lot to do with just appearing casual and minding your own business, I could be wrong but I think most people who pocket carry a lot develop these habits without really even realizing it.

All that said, drawing from pocket carry is still slow and rarely (if ever) the best method. But we all compromise somewhere to some degree.

 

[Old Dog]

Here's the deal: some who've worked in certain occupations will almost always consider anyone with hand(s) in pocket(s) as a potential (and in some places at certain times, a likely) threat.

My eyes were opened back in the day when I had to put in my time (working) on the corrections side for a bit. At 0200 at an urban gas station, I'll be highly suspicious of someone with hands in his pockets (especially if it's over 60 degrees).

Also, these days -- anyone in a shopping center, store, movie theater or mall (or sadly, a school when they don't appear to be a student) carrying a bag or wearing a slung backpack might just be looking out of place...

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

Well this thread has certainly gone off the rails.

Many of you are not only over thinking this but probably need to reevaluate your SD plans when out in public.

Once again, the scenario is you are the shopper/bystander behind the assailant. As shown in the video the assailant is unequivocally focused on the teller/getting money.

I know its talked about all the time but situational awareness is paramount 100% of the time. As soon as the BG pulls a gun, with the shopper behind at what, 3yrds or less, yeah I'm no John Wick but I could've neutralized that threat before he was able to get that shot off, and it would have been perfectly legal.

Its good to analyze scenarios like this, but in this particular one you folks waiting to see what he does, well, it could be the last thing that goes through your head before a bullet.

BG ran way in this situation. I'm not willing to bet my life on that once a deadly threat has presented itself.

 

[Kleanbore]

but in this particular one you folks waiting to see what he does, well, it could be the last thing that goes through your head before a bullet.

Earlier, you said "I'm waiting to see what happens".

As soon as the BG pulls a gun, with the shopper behind at what, 3yrds or less, yeah I'm no John Wick but I could've neutralized that threat before he was able to get that shot off,

Would you have moved to ensure a clear shot and backstop without having drawn attention to yourself? Could you be sure that his head did not move between the time you decided to fire and you did so? Have you considered those things?

 

[Jeff White]

I know its talked about all the time but situational awareness is paramount 100% of the time. As soon as the BG pulls a gun, with the shopper behind at what, 3yrds or less, yeah I'm no John Wick but I could've neutralized that threat before he was able to get that shot off, and it would have been perfectly legal.

Sounds like you’re looking for a chance to use your gun.

Its good to analyze scenarios like this, but in this particular one you folks waiting to see what he does, well, it could be the last thing that goes through your head before a bullet.

So if you’re standing behind him, he either has to turn towards you to put a bullet through your head or he has to pull out a mirror and place his weapon over his shoulder and line up the shot like a carnival trick shooter. In either case you will have plenty of opportunity to “neutralize the threat” before the bullet goes through your head.

BG ran way in this situation. I'm not willing to bet my life on that once a deadly threat has presented itself.

But you’re obviously willing to bet the lives of everyone else in the store by starting a gunfight. Because we all know that it always happens just like you imagine it will, your bullet hits the brain stem, you get the magical “no reflex kill”, the chief of police makes you an honorary SWAT team member and gives you the medal of valor, the corporate headquarters of the service station gives you free gas for life, the child’s family thanks you for plucking a bad apple from their family tree and you never have to buy a drink again around town……if only real life were that simple. Too bad we don’t live in that world. Those with experience in the real world don’t think there is any “overthinking” going on.

 

[Old Dog]

Many of you are not only over thinking this but probably need to reevaluate your SD plans when out in public.

All due respect, since this was a good S&T thread topic, I'm ah, yeah, uh, just gonna have to uh... yeah, you know, just disagree with you a little bit here. (picture Gary Cole in "Office Space")

(Besides me, of course) Several members brought up some valid points for consideration. Mas Ayoob termed the use of deadly force as "In the Gravest Extreme" -- which means, the topic is as serious a subject as exists in the human condition -- taking another human's life. In the incident presented on the video, there's no "correct answer. The end result is the end result, and survivors have the rest of their lives to live with it.