What would you pay?

[MachIVshooter]

BTW, Mach, I think you have some experience with plastics and you clearly know a few things about machining. Ballpark estimate, what do you think the difference in cost would be between an aluminum and polymer receiver? People here make a good point that a rifle meant to be knocked around would probably be better suited for aluminum, but at the same time, a higher price might put this design in competition with several of the "nicer" 9mm carbines out there.

Materials cost is a factor, but manufacturing time is a much bigger one. It's a fairly complex receiver to machine, but would be easy to injection mold. An injection molded receiver with steel or aluminum snout where the hinge pin, ears and latch are might be the ticket to keep cost down while providing the benefits of the stronger material where it's needed. That piece alone would be pretty straight forward; it's the deep blind hole boring, mag well and especially fire control pocket that are substantial machining operations. I would think the difference between a billet receiver and injection molded one would be similar to metal vs. polymer framed handguns; $100-$150 retail.

 

[silicosys4]

1. I wouldn't buy a polymer version at any price.
2. the aluminum version would have to be significantly less expensive than a decent AR, so $400 or under.
3. Glock or CZ75 magazines for me, otherwise I'm not interested at all

 

[mjsdwash]

Do you have a life expectancy round count for it?

 

[mjsdwash]

Also, many of us like to get out, and backpack rifles are nice. I know a guy who wants a savage youth rifle, and cant forget the marlin pistol carbines. Why are people somehow offended by these? If the AR7 and those keltecs/hipoints are marketable, im sure something like this is.

 

[readyeddy]

I voted other for the aluminum receiver. Assuming that the gun is reliable, durable, and capable of shooting 1" groups at 50 yards, then I think the gun could sell for $800. It could be marketed as a backpack gun, plinker, and home defense gun.

 

[.338-06]

If it was in .45 and took Glock mags I could see myself buying this for $600-650. You should ask a gun dealer how fast a Kel-Tec Sub-2000 that takes Glock mags sell compared to the others.

 

[Panzerschwein]

Provided the manufacturer made quality units, I'd need a price of about tree fiddy.

KIDDING! i'd probably spend up to $600 on one. It looks like an awesome well though out design.

 

[guyfromohio]

If I saw that in the $500 range, I'd buy it. More than that, I'd have to know that it was something special from an accuracy, reliability, durability, and purpose standpoint. Magazine interchangeability with a current gun would be a must.

The real question is...."what was the cost to build and distribute?".... If the cost to build (parts, labor, etc..) and distribute (marketing, distributing, retail mark-up) don't leave you anything after $500, then the price-point isn't going to work for you. If the price point only works with a reasonable margin at $800-$1000, then it either has to be better than the other $800-$1000 carbines or it's not a viable enterprise.

 

[LoonWulf]

I voted 650 for an aluminum based gun, this would included aluminum or well attached plastic handguards over the barrel instead of carbon fiber. Tho i could see an "as designed" higher end model in the 700-750 range being a good option as well, carbon tube isnt that expensive and Im sure some folks would pay a premium just cause of how it looks.... I mean cause of the weight savings.

I would prefer some modifications to the design. Namely the already mentioned barrel block latch, I have no issue with how it works, but the projecting tab would annoy me...im not sure what change to make there, but its functional enough for now imo.
I would also think that a possible increase in bolt weight might help longevity and reliability. Also having other chamberings even if this required the receiver be upsized a bit.
I believe that an increase in gun weight wouldnt be a bad thing, as I actually see only few people buying these as "back pack" guns. More would want them because they were bloody cool, handled and shot well, and were just fun...if they folded up and stored away all the better.
Having some Magazine modularity would be good, but off the shelf probably most guys want glock mags as stated...it really dosent mater at this point, lets all just assume it take the mags we want it to.

 

[greyling22]

I like it, but mostly as an affordable 9mm carbine that looks better than a hi-point. I don't actually care much that it folds. as my eyes are sorry and I'd need an optic of some sort and top folding precludes that. If you could make it as a side folder, now that helps with optics and to differentiate it from the keltec.

That said, it is really cool. and if I packed, it would hold more appeal.

 

[Casefull]

It is a great build that few of us could do. If I wanted something like this I would put a 9in wolf barrel in a glock 17 and make a stock for the glock. Wt would be about the same with a proven design. I would want it in a small rifle caliber. Price, up to $900 would not be an issue if it was durable, quick to assemble (as in unfold the stock and shoot) and in at least .223 or other small centerfire rifle caliber.

 

[MachIVshooter]

I would prefer some modifications to the design. Namely the already mentioned barrel block latch, I have no issue with how it works, but the projecting tab would annoy me...im not sure what change to make there, but its functional enough for now imo.

I'll ponder how I might want to change that. But TBH, the couple of comments in this thread are the first to take issue with it. Maybe it looks particularly obtrusive in the photos? No one who has handled or shot it has mentioned the latch at all.

A production version could end up with quite a few changes. Remember, I built this for me, so it is the way I want it. I was not trying to develop a rifle to take to market, but with folks quite literally begging me to build them and me not being able to do so for several reasons, I felt I should approach manufacturers with this concept, and it would be great to have some idea what kind of money people would be willing to pay. There are a number of carbines on the market, but only one other folder, and none this light (the Sub-2K is 3/4 pound (21%) heavier, despite being mostly polymer)

I would also think that a possible increase in bolt weight might help longevity and reliability. Also having other chamberings even if this required the receiver be upsized a bit.

Eh, the rest of the rifle is tuned to the light bolt. A heavier bolt would allow for a lighter recoil spring and thus lower cocking effort, but that's about it. This one is heavy enough to keep the breech closed even with +P loads, and the spring arrangement decelerates it very effectively. I had it at a local range on Sunday, and one of the managers tried it out. He said despite the thin butt plate and light weight, it actually had a lighter felt recoil than the Sub-2K. I know the Beretta storm I had was obnoxious with that ridiculously heavy bolt slamming into the polymer receiver.

As for other chamberings, they're just not very popular. We rarely see .40 or .45 carbines on the shelves here. Beretta has dropped the .45 ACP offering in the Cx4. Most AR PCCs are 9mm. The Skorpion is only offered in 9mm. .40 popularity has been waning for awhile, and .45 is just too expensive to shoot for many. 10mm is even more niche and more expensive, relatively few people jumping on that band wagon, despite the impressive ballistics of the cartridge.

As a 10mm nut, I will probably build a 10mm version for me, but it's not gonna be blowback. True direct impingement or short stroke piston gas operation.

Having some Magazine modularity would be good, but off the shelf probably most guys want glock mags as stated...it really dosent mater at this point, lets all just assume it take the mags we want it to.

Important to keep in mind. As I said before, it made sense for me to use the magazines I did. But with the mag well outside of the grip, the potential mag configurations are limitless. Everything from single stack subcompact mags to Glock, Uzi, MP5. Not trying to do a grip well, there are no constraints on the dimensions and shape of mags that can be made to work.

 

[adcoch1]

Llama Bob, the use of this

There still seems to be no explanation what the use for this gun is. We both agree that hunting deer in some "survival" scenario is absurdly unlikely, AND the gun's not even good for that compared to essentially any centerfire rifle.

And as far as I can tell, if it's for defense/shooting at people there are very few autoloading rifles you'd like to have less - 9mm range sucks, terminal performance sucks, accuracy probably isn't great with a hinge in the middle of the rifle.

So we know what the gun's NOT for, but what is it for?

Llama bob, the purpose of this gun is to have a small, lightweight, reasonably powerful rifle that uses the same magazines and ammo as a personal sidearm. It is purposed to situations where weight and size matter. You don't like it, fine, but as a new design it offers a lot more than anything currently on the market does. No, its not a big game hunting rifle, it is a lightweight survival rifle. And in aluminium it is very reasonable around the $500 mark. Also, Berretta mags are plenty popular enough, as are high cap mags for Berretta.

 

[Nuclear]

I like the look, materials, weight and caliber. I'd buy one. Who cares if it fulfills a need, I would want one.

 

[Jim Watson]

I'll take aluminum for $600, Alex.
PCC is the current fad and there is probably a niche for a folder.

Sight placement should allow for ready SBR modification. And of course the muzzle must be threaded for those who only want to pay for one NFA stamp.

Read what Wilson has to say about Glock vs Beretta magazines in their PCC:
https://forums.1911forum.com/showpost.php?p=8452857&postcount=8

 

[tarosean]

Read what Wilson has to say about Glock vs Beretta magazines in their PCC:

I own a lot of Glock 32rd and Beretta 30rd magazines. The Glocks are far superior in reliability, the Beretta's springs are just too weak IMO, often resulting in stuck followers.
"Normal capacity" are consistently reliable for both though. .

 

[Kendal Black]

It's going to have to work every time,or very nearly so. That is why a certain other brand of folding carbine is stricken off my list.

There may be differences in two things, parts that make sense when you are making one, and parts that you make a million of. Take a look at that aspect and simplify where possible.