What's a Real 1911?

[ezypikns]

I referred to my Smith & Wesson 1911 STYLE pistol in a recent post as a "1911".
I was taken to task by a fellow High Roader who informed me that my "abomination" was not a 1911.

I would imagine that a REAL 1911 would be one just like Mr. Browning designed, with no mods at all.

I like the Smith just fine. Not planning on throwing it out any time soon, but I am curious. What IS a REAL 1911?

 

[phrozenlikwid]

Depends on how much of a purist you are talking to.

Many consider the external extractor a dealbreaker as it is completely different than JMB's original design. Same with series 80 type safeties, non single stack frames, or polymer frames for that matter.

Then you have guys who claim anything but a original Colt/Remington Rand/WWII heirloom is not a 1911.

I dunno, I never have had much of an opinion on the matter. I just like the guns for the ergos, and the trigger. If it works, who cares?

 

[fastbolt]

Colt considers their various models to be "Colt Pistols". The basic Colt LE armorer manual uses the designation "Model O Pistols". Different models within that general classification have different model numbers or names.

"Purists" love ... or perhaps feel an overwhelming compulsion ... to be very specific when discussing model variations. If that's their thing, I seldom bother to disagree with them or correct them. It's almost a cultural icon, anyway.

Some of these same purists will still call a Colt pistol's safety lock a "thumb safety", though.

I've often referred to various handguns produced to that general design as "1911-style", or just used whatever model designation is used by a particular manufacturer, if only as a matter of convenience or to avoid confusion when a specific make/model is under discussion.

FWIW, speaking just within the Colt product line, a M16A1 is still an AR-15, although not all AR-15's are M16A1's.

Also, if someone mentions the word "Jeep", different specific vehicles will probably come to mind when different folks are involved. The generic term does tend to put everyone in the same general vicinity of a type of vehicle, though, when it comes to the purpose of general discussion.

S&W has decided to call their model line the SW1911, and that's their prerogative. I own a SW1911SC 5" model, myself. I often refer to it as a "1911-style", and at other times as one of my "1911's", and at even other times as a "SW1911SC". Depends on the persons(s) to whom I'm exchanging info at the time. As long as they understand what I'm talking about, the purpose has been served.

No reason to get all wrapped up around the axle.

However, since we're often judged by our spoken and written words, sometimes we might wish to be specific about such things, depending on the purpose and detail involved in our discussion.

 

[Guitargod1985]

For me, a 1911 has to have the following:

-barrel bushing
-barrel length of 5", 4.25", or 3.5". NOT 4"
-internal extractor
-no ambi safety

For the first two reasons, I do not consider a Springfield Champion to be a 1911. Nor do I consider a Springfield Loaded model to be a 1911, unless the ambi safety is replaced with a regular one. I don't consider the Simth and Wessons 1911s because of the extractor.

I'm indifferent about forward cocking serrations, beavertail safety, sights, and trigger. I know this is not a traditional definition of a 1911, but it works for me. Strictly speaking, though, a REAL 1911 would have GI sights, barrel bushing, barrel of the lengths I mentioned, no beavertail safety, no forward cocking serrations, no firing pin block, an internal extractor, non-extended safety, non-extended slide release, and other 1911 thingies. Technically, there are very few REAL 1911s out there.

 

[1911Tuner]

This. Colt USGI circa 1919. The one on the table is a late '45 production Remington Rand. It counts as a real one, too.

 

[Technosavant]

As Tuner said, if somebody REALLY wants to be a stickler, it had better look just like that one.

However, I note many purists who just like to look down on others. They are actually serious when they claim "if it's not a Colt, it's a copy," and claim that a series 80 Colt is truer to the original than, say, a Rock Island (despite the Colt's firing pin block).

To me, the 1911 pattern demands a single action sliding trigger, exposed hammer, and thumb safety, all in the same pattern. Sure, there's liberties taken (bull barrels, double stack mags, smaller sizes, and so on), but if it does away with the basic trigger function, it is not a 1911. While I'd consider a double stack Para a 1911, I do not see the Para LDA as a 1911.

It depends on how much of a stickler you plan on being, but if you head down that road, you might as well go all the way and limit it to stuff that has "US Government Property" rollmarked on the slide.

 

[DougDubya]

It's semantics. Most of the guns that these guys like aren't 1911's anyhow, they're 1911-A1's, designed for people who are under five foot three.

And if someone DOES take you to task on your choice, remember - it's the internetz. It attracts contrarians (like me.)

 

[CWL]

I think there are real 1911s which are based on the 1911 pattern "Govt." model.

Everything else that has slide & frame meeting specs are M1911s.

In reality, I don't really care.

 

[Jim Watson]

In order of purity as I see it:
REAL 1911s were made from 1912 til about 1925 and issued to the Army and other military.
1911A1s were made from 1925 til 1945 and issued to the Army and other military.
Colt Government Models were made from 1912 til 1970 and look just like the 1911s or 1911A1s of the period but were not issued to the Army (except for some at the start of WW II.)
I don't mind calling any of the above a "1911" but I am not a major purist.

You can modify a 1911 with different sights, hammer, trigger, thumb and grip safeties, grips, addition of serrations on and off grasping areas, etc., etc., and if you can put standard GI parts back on it and it still shoot, I still don't mind calling it a "1911."

Start messing with the mechanics and interchangeability and I get hard to live with on terminology. S&W and (temporarily) Kimber use external extractors; P-O scabbed on a double column magazine; I have seen guns that looked like 1911s with cam track unlocking. None of those are "1911s" in my book because they don't and can't use 1911 parts.
I don't get too heated up over the firing pin obstructions because they can be removed and the gun operate normally.

A close examination would find that Les Baer and Springfield Armory put .38 firing pins in .45 guns. Not interchangeable with the service pistol and therefore not real 1911s, no matter what Springfield stamps on the slide.

I guess the RIA and other brand names for Armscor of the Philippines is about the closest copy of a 191A1 you can get new.

 

[Old Fuff]

I have used the term "real 1911" to describe a pistol made by Colt, or government contractors during wartime, between 1911 and around 1965.

By then everyone and his brother had either gone into the business of making (more or less) copies of that famous pistol, or planed to; but often without the materials, workmanship or quality control that had made the "real" pistols famous. The newer guns soon earned a reputation for being unreliable, and needing a lot of tinkering, and replacement of magazines, springs and other parts to make them satisfactory. They also had to be "broken in" before they could be expected to work, which was something earlier guns didn't.

It is interesting that while various forums are filled with complaints concerning the performance of these newer guns, you don't find many (or any?) of the same concerning those pistols that were made before the numerous makers introduced design, dimensional and material improvements.

The word "real" serves to put things into perspective.

 

[cornman]

Springfield or "Colt .45" IMO

 

[1911Tuner]

Here's another one that qualifies. It's a mechanically mint, but refinished 1925 Commercial Government Model. It has all the A1 or "Improved" features except the sights. I doubt if the gun has seen more than a thousand rounds.

It...and the two pictured above...will shoot tighter than 3 inches at 25 yards with standard hardball. The 1919 Colt will make 3 inches at 50 from the bags with my SWC handloads as long as somebody with better eyes than mine is pullin' the trigger. And yes...They all feed the lead SWC ammo and good hollowpoints...and they haven't been
smithed, smoothed, ramped, "throated" or polished...and they don't require new tactical magazines to do it, either. Plain USGI "Hardball" mags will do, thank you.

 

[Monkeybear]

From a non-1911 guy who talks guns with a lot of other non-1911 guys, anything that pretty much looks like a 1911 is a 1911 to us. I guess we just figure its a whole lot closer to being a 1911 than it is to being anything else and it says 1911 on the box so lets just call it a 1911.

Its just like with the AK guys. Call a Yugo underfolder an AK in front of the wrong person and see what happens. I had a guy at a party hassle me for calling a Yugo an AK because its Yugoslavian, semi-auto, and dose not meet the original specs of the AK. Whatever; looks like an AK, takes AK mags and says AK on the box.

 

[HisSoldier]

When you start to see the original specifications for materials and processes for the manufacture of 1911's and 1911 A1's and compare them with what you find available now by any manufacturer it really starts to look like there aren't any being made at all now. Never mind that some materials and processes used now are superior. I guess what I'm saying is that it depends on how much of a purist you want to be about it.

 

[NGIB]

I had someone take me to task on this recently when he said my Para LTC definitely WAS NOT a 1911. Personally I could give a hoot what folks think but it's close enough for me:

 

[mister2]

Beauty and "real 1911"s are in the eye of the beholder.

 

[1911Tuner]

Never mind that some materials and processes used now are superior.

Now there's meat for a debate if ever there was one. While the steels and the heat-treatment in the frames and slides is indisputably better...once ya get past the skin, things start to look a little suspect.

 

[1911 guy]

Old Fuff and 1911Tuner have defined it pretty well. Despite the belief by Colt fans, not even Colt makes a "real" 1911 anymore.

Having said all that, I still like some of the new stuff. Springfield and RIA/armscorp/CD are my current favorites, followed closely by Colt and older Kimbers.

 

[1911Tuner]

If ya get down to the nitty-gritty...The Colt Commanders and Combat Commanders aren't 1911s either. They're 1911A1 variants...as are Kimbers and Springfields, etc.

 

[HisSoldier]

I make thousands of parts every year both by manual machines and CNC machines. No one with my experience would say that the processes used in the early 1900's compare to CNC, there is no comparison at all. CNC is vastly superior.

 

[yongxingfreesty]

.45cp and not .40sw or 9mm.
but hey, whatever.

 

[Old Fuff]

I did mention that "real" 1911 pistols were made up to 1965....

There havent been any substantial changes in materials (at least for the better) and heat treating since then. While pre-war pistols were made of different steels they have proven to be equal to the job.

The last time Uncle Sam bought new 1911A1 service pistols was 1945. They lasted in service until replaced by Berettas starting in 1982. A handful are still being used, although often rebuilt.

And they still work reliably...

 

[Old Fuff]

No one with my experience would say that the processes used in the early 1900's compare to CNC, there is no comparison at all. CNC is vastly superior.

I know of a major manufacturer that makes their own frames - obviously on CNC machines. At least one batch wasn't to print and out of tolerance.

A CNC machine is only as good as the person that programed it.

 

[MrBorland]

What's a Real 1911?

I've often wondered that myself. After some searching, I came upon a dusty old scroll (link below, cough cough). Lo and behold, it told me what a 1911 was not. Very eye opening for this poor naive soul. Man, those 1911 guys are a tough group!


As translated from the original ancient manuscripts by Fr. Frog.
© copyright 2002 by John C. Schaefer

1 In the beginning was the 1911, and the 1911 was THE pistol, and it was good. And behold the Lord said, "Thou shalt not muck with my disciple John's design for it is good and it workith. For John made the 1911, and lo all of his weapons, from the designs which I, the Lord, gave him upon the mountain."

2 "And shouldst thou muck with it, and hang all manner of foul implements upon it, and profane its internal parts, thou shalt surely have malfunctions, and in the midst of battle thou shalt surely come to harm."

3 And as the ages passed men in their ignorance and arrogance didst forget the word of the Lord and began to profane the 1911. The tribe of the gamesman did place recoil spring guides and extended slide releases upon the 1911 and their metal smiths didst tighten the tolerances and alter parts to their liking, their clearness of mind being clouded by lust.

4 Their artisans did hang all manner of foul implements upon the 1911 and did so alter it that it became impractical to purchase. For lo, the artisans didst charge a great tax upon the purchasers of the 1911 so that the lowly field worker could not afford one. And the profaning of the internal parts didst render it unworkable when the dust of the land fell upon it.

5 And lo, they didst install adjustable sights, which are an abomination unto the Lord. For they doth break and lose their zero when thou dost need true aim. And those who have done so will be slain in great numbers by their enemies in the great battle. a

6 And it came to pass that the Lord didst see the abomination wrought by man and didst cause, as he had warned, fearful malfunctions to come upon the abominations and upon the artisans who thought they could do no wrong.

7 Seeing the malfunctions and the confusion of men, the lord of the underworld did see an opportunity to further ensnare man and didst bring forth pistols made of plastic, whose form was such that they looked and felt like a brick, yet the eyes of man being clouded, they were consumed by the plastic pistol and did buy vast quantities of them.

8 And being a deceitful spirit the lord of the underworld did make these plastic pistols unamenable to the artisans of earth and they were unable to muck much with the design, and lo these pistols did appear to function.

9 And the evil one also brought forth pistols in which the trigger didst both cock and fire them and which require a "dingus" to make them appear safe.

10 But man being stupid did not understand these new pistols and didst proceed to shoot themselves with the plastic pistol and with the trigger cocking pistols for lo their manual of arms required great intelligence which man had long since forsaken. Yet man continue to gloat over these new pistols blaming evil forces for the negligent discharges which they themselves had committed.

11 And when man had been totally ensnared with the plastic pistol, the lord of the underworld didst cause a plague of the terrible Ka-Boom to descend upon man and the plastic pistols delivered their retribution upon men. And there was a great wailing and gnashing of teeth in the land.

12 Then seeing that the eyes of man were slowly being opened and that man was truly sorrowful for his sinful misdeeds, the Lord did send his messengers in the form of artisans who did hear and obey the teachings of the prophet and who didst restore the profaned 1911s to their proper configuration, and lo, to the amazement of men they didst begin to work as the prophet had intended.

13 And the men of the land didst drive out the charlatans and profaners from the land, and there was joy and peace in the land, except for the evil sprits which tried occasionally to prey on the men and women of the land and who were sent to the place of eternal damnation b by the followers of John.

a Several old manuscripts add the following text. "And they [also rendered as "these men"] didst chamber it for cartridges who's calibers startith with numbers less than the Holy Number 4. And lo the Lord did cause great grief amongst these men when their enemies who were struck in battle with these lesser numbers didst not fall but did continue to cause great harm."


http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=2775927&postcount=19

 

[Jim Watson]

Right, Fuff.
As the machinist told me, a CNC machine with the wrong numbers will turn out scrap faster than ever before. Goes in spades for MIM, the moulds are so expensive that the vendors are reluctant to replace them until they get a LOT of complaints.