GuyWithQuestions
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What's everyone's view on the legality of "armor piercing bullets" and what surrounds the issue?
What's everyone's view on armor piercing bullets?
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WeedWhacker
Member
Hysteria.
Your plain-Jane off-the-shelf run-of-the-mill hunting rifle uses ammunition which will completely defeat the vast majority of body armor in use today.
"Shall not be infringed" includes the ammunition. Don't believe me? Re-read the Declaration of Independence, and pay close attention to the second paragraph.
Your plain-Jane off-the-shelf run-of-the-mill hunting rifle uses ammunition which will completely defeat the vast majority of body armor in use today.
"Shall not be infringed" includes the ammunition. Don't believe me? Re-read the Declaration of Independence, and pay close attention to the second paragraph.
SDC
Member
It was only ever a media-driven panic to begin with; there has only ever been ONE American LEO killed with an "armour-piercing" handgun bullet (an officer in Puerto Rico), and he was shot in the head to begin with, so it was irrelevant that a KTW round was used. But, since that doesn't sell papers or air time, and politicians can't take some sort of indignant stand against the facts, they preferred to whip up hysteria about a non-issue.
jrfoxx
Member
My view is that AP ammo should be perfectly legal, for rifles and handguns, for all U.S. citizens who own firearms and want some.Just like the gun itself, I'd rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it.Also, why shouldnt I be allowed to own it?Again, just like the gun itself, it's what I DO with the item that matters, not wether I simply OWN it or not.It's just yet another tool, again like the gun itself, that I have a right to own to protect myself, my family, and my fellow citizens, from all enemies, foreign OR domestic.We are already at a SEVERE disadvantage with the rules/price on full-auto weapons, DD's, etc.Why prohibit yet another useful tool based on what someone MIGHT do with it?
As to what surrounds the issue? Government control of us peons, and media hypethat's all it is.SDC speaks the truth.
Edited to add, since its coming up in discussion, by armor piercing, I am referring to ammo along the lines of the WWII M2 AP ammo I have for my Garand, with the Tungston core.ACTUAL purpose built AP ammo, not Ted Kennedy's Norinco mild steel core x39 or 30-30 lies/hokum.You know, ammo designed to penetrate armor plating, not ammo that HAPPENS to penetrate "body armor". (how is it that one of the scummiest of the Kenedy clan (and thats saying quite a lot IMHO), is the only one who manages to still be alive? what a rip-off)
As to what surrounds the issue? Government control of us peons, and media hypethat's all it is.SDC speaks the truth.
Edited to add, since its coming up in discussion, by armor piercing, I am referring to ammo along the lines of the WWII M2 AP ammo I have for my Garand, with the Tungston core.ACTUAL purpose built AP ammo, not Ted Kennedy's Norinco mild steel core x39 or 30-30 lies/hokum.You know, ammo designed to penetrate armor plating, not ammo that HAPPENS to penetrate "body armor". (how is it that one of the scummiest of the Kenedy clan (and thats saying quite a lot IMHO), is the only one who manages to still be alive? what a rip-off)
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delta53
Member
1 veiw
There is only 1 view and that is the law. Only handgun AP bullets are bad in the laws view. end of story:banghead:
There is only 1 view and that is the law. Only handgun AP bullets are bad in the laws view. end of story:banghead:
Master Blaster
Member
The law was made by STUPID policticians, who understand nothing about bullets or firearms.
The law is BS enacted to make people who hate firearms and understand nothing about crime FEEL good.
The law has no benefit.
The law is BS enacted to make people who hate firearms and understand nothing about crime FEEL good.
The law has no benefit.
Randy in Arizona
Member
GuyWithQuestions said:
Armor piercing bullets has become a political term rather than a truly descriptive term. Sort of like "Assault Rifle" no longer means "military firearm that is chambered for ammunition of reduced size or propellant charge and that has the capacity to switch between semiautomatic and fully automatic fire." From Britannica.com article "assault-rifle"
Assault Rifle now means Evil Black Rifle capable of causing death or loss of bladder control by its scary looks alone.
Near as I can figure the intent of the law was to keep LEOs from getting shot up by special pistol ammunition that might penetrate an officer's bullet RESISTANT vest.
That said, most modern (1880s and later) high power rifles can penetrate a vest.
I have heard that an old 45-70 may not puncture a vest. However the vest itself wraps around the bullet and causes massive blunt force trauma.
Or one could try a 300 Remchesterby Magnum with 110 grain bullets at 4500 FPS+
Or avoid the vest and just kneecap with a 22 rimfire.
Boils down to hyperbole on the part of the mainstream media and gungrabbers with an agenda of removing YOUR ability to defend yourself.
feedthehogs
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They work well on steel targets owned by ignorant loud mouth shooters.
geekWithA.45
Moderator Emeritus
They would be useful if you ever need to justifiably engage an armored target.
Mark Wilson sure could have used them down in Tyler, Texas, when he engaged an armored maniac intent on shooting up his family and a courthouse. He scored several hits, to no effect, made the unfortunate mistake of taking cover behind the bad guy's getaway truck, and was killed.
Like automatic knives, handguns, and "assault weapons", machine guns, and destructive devices, they are all restricted as the result of a "moral panic".
My dad always told me never to panic, because it never helps.
highorder
Member
.30-06 M2 AP is very accurate in my M1. other than that, I dont understand all the hoopla...
BridgeWalker
Member
The problem is, when would one use them? You can't know when an attacker will be wearing armor, and you are probably gonna stick with more typical SD ammo. Alternating rounds in magazines, maybe? Two hollowpoints, then two "armor piercing" rounds, in case the hollowpoints don't work? What is the practical application of armor-piercing bullets in personal defense for an ordinary citizen?
Oh, and yeh, of course they should be legal. I can certainly imagine situations where they might be handy. If I was being stalked by a mall-ninja type who made of hobby of weaponry, I might prefer to carry "armor piercing" ammo. But that's pretty far-fetched. I don't know Mark Wilson's story, but did he have any knowledge beforehand that he might need AP rounds?
But, yes, they should be legal. That ban is just another way of banning something, anything, to lead to banning more things. Current bans being pushed focus on ammo. Next target: rifle ammo. And they will cite that it is armor piercing, which much be bad, or it wouldn't be illegal in handguns.
Oh, and yeh, of course they should be legal. I can certainly imagine situations where they might be handy. If I was being stalked by a mall-ninja type who made of hobby of weaponry, I might prefer to carry "armor piercing" ammo. But that's pretty far-fetched. I don't know Mark Wilson's story, but did he have any knowledge beforehand that he might need AP rounds?
But, yes, they should be legal. That ban is just another way of banning something, anything, to lead to banning more things. Current bans being pushed focus on ammo. Next target: rifle ammo. And they will cite that it is armor piercing, which much be bad, or it wouldn't be illegal in handguns.
wheelgunslinger
Member
banning AP rounds is like banning doughnuts because they might make you fat, or banning hot coffee because a child might be burned by it.
Pre-emptive banning does nothing but take it out of the hands of responsible people.
Pre-emptive banning does nothing but take it out of the hands of responsible people.
Prince Yamato
Member
I prefer to view them from behind as they are fired down-range.
Neo-Luddite
Member
AP ammo is misunderstood even by many shooters and any meaningful definitions have been further obscured by a media that cares little about understanding anything beyond its own comforts and agenda.
Self-regulation by the marketplace and (perhaps) fear of lawsuits have really limited civilian sales of any newly manufactured AP rounds anyway.
What is out there is old de-milled or milsurp ammo, and it is mostly dried up compared to even a few years ago.
Self-regulation by the marketplace and (perhaps) fear of lawsuits have really limited civilian sales of any newly manufactured AP rounds anyway.
What is out there is old de-milled or milsurp ammo, and it is mostly dried up compared to even a few years ago.
What are "armor-piercing bullets"?
Ted Kennedy's armor-piercing round is America's favorite deer hunting cartridge. Literally.
A law against "armor-piercing" bullets can be used to ban any effective projectile for defense or hunting. If it penetrates something, it can be banned for doing so.
That said, if the military needs certain rounds, and SWAT needs them, then they have a legitimate use for civilians. The guys that SWAT shoots are the same guys who might enter our home and kill us. If the cops need something to fight the bad guys, we have the same need, and the same right.
The same goes for AR-15's, which now are in many cop cars (including our local University police -- busting up loud late-night keggers must be tougher than it was when I was in school or something...) If the cops have a legitimate use for an M4 to use against street criminals, then SO DO I.
Ted Kennedy's armor-piercing round is America's favorite deer hunting cartridge. Literally.
A law against "armor-piercing" bullets can be used to ban any effective projectile for defense or hunting. If it penetrates something, it can be banned for doing so.
That said, if the military needs certain rounds, and SWAT needs them, then they have a legitimate use for civilians. The guys that SWAT shoots are the same guys who might enter our home and kill us. If the cops need something to fight the bad guys, we have the same need, and the same right.
The same goes for AR-15's, which now are in many cop cars (including our local University police -- busting up loud late-night keggers must be tougher than it was when I was in school or something...) If the cops have a legitimate use for an M4 to use against street criminals, then SO DO I.
Most AP ammo is just a normal round with a projectile made of a less dense and harder metal than lead. Lead is bad for the environment, right? So we should all be shooting AP all the time to lessen the amount of lead being shot into the environment.
The term has mutated into a politcal tool to disarm
'Armor Piercing' and 'Cop Killer' have become synonomous. The only reason to possess that ammo now seems to be to penetrate bullet proof vests. The only people that ought to be able to wear such vests are our 'brave protectors' in law enforcement. If you have such ammo in your possession then you are up to no good and only want to harm the 'good guys'.
The whole FN Five-Seven controversy is based around the hysteria that a bullet that can penetrate a vest has no business being in the hands of the public.
Our Hero of Chappaquidick wanted to ban .30-30 ammo because he found out(horrors) that it could slice, like a knife through butter, bullet proof vests.
'Armor Piercing' and 'Cop Killer' have become synonomous. The only reason to possess that ammo now seems to be to penetrate bullet proof vests. The only people that ought to be able to wear such vests are our 'brave protectors' in law enforcement. If you have such ammo in your possession then you are up to no good and only want to harm the 'good guys'.
The whole FN Five-Seven controversy is based around the hysteria that a bullet that can penetrate a vest has no business being in the hands of the public.
Our Hero of Chappaquidick wanted to ban .30-30 ammo because he found out(horrors) that it could slice, like a knife through butter, bullet proof vests.
ctdonath
Member
"Armor Piercing Ammunition" has a very specific meaning in federal law - which bears no resemblance to what normal people read those words to mean.
kd7nqb
Member
I have no problem with any traditional style rounds that may or may not defeat body armor. Being that just about anybody can buy a vest its not like only the good guys are wearing them. I am actually ok with regulation (not banning) of things like artillery rounds but thats not what we are talking about.
I was in a bi-mart and bought some Federal Hydra-shoks and a fellow customer said "ah, good old cop killers". From that statement I knew he knew nothing about firearms so I chose to ignore him. But "armor piercing" or "cop killer" rounds are more a media creation than a legitimate type of ammunition.
I was in a bi-mart and bought some Federal Hydra-shoks and a fellow customer said "ah, good old cop killers". From that statement I knew he knew nothing about firearms so I chose to ignore him. But "armor piercing" or "cop killer" rounds are more a media creation than a legitimate type of ammunition.
When I think AP, I think of Armor Piercing Incendiary and steel cored miltary rounds, but thats not what most people think of when they hear "AP". They think more alongs the lines of shooting thru "bullet proof" vest. My 17 rem can shoot thru standard issue "duty vests" So can just about every other rifle round out there, and the ones that can't( 44 mag, 500 S&W, 45 -70s, 12 ga slug pretty much any heavy bullet) are going to do so much blunt trama that there is a good chance the cop is going to be badly hurt or killed.
jaholder1971
Member
AP ammo zips through body armor (and the body) not unlike 95 percent of all centerfire rifle ammo.
Silly, feelgood law that essentially outlawed overpriced bullets that were only sold to LE anyway.
Silly, feelgood law that essentially outlawed overpriced bullets that were only sold to LE anyway.
Waitone
Member
"Armor piercing" is the latest category created by anti-second amendment types . They can't whip up hysteria over the evils of hunting ammo. Not enough emotional impact there so they create a new category called "armored piercing" and begin to place it in the media. Over time they can infuse the term with all the emotional bilge needed. So instead of hunting ammo we now have sniper ammo that can slice through armor vests police officers wear. Why would anyone need such capability unless you want to kill cops. We have to protect the cops so let's regulate availability of armor piercing bullets. Yeah, that's the ticket, do it for the cops and their kids.
Note: the discussion has just shifted from boring hunting impacting a comparatively few people to emotional cop killings impacting everyone.
Kennedy signaled the change in tactics during the debate to renew the AWB.
Note: the discussion has just shifted from boring hunting impacting a comparatively few people to emotional cop killings impacting everyone.
Kennedy signaled the change in tactics during the debate to renew the AWB.
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