What's the deal with small calibers?

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shotgunjoel

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I'm slightly confused, I'm always hearing people say how you have to use either a 45ACP or a .308 to even phase an attacker. But my question is, how the heck did people protect themselves back in the first half of the 20th century when they carried 25s and 32s? Are we just obsessed with trying to have the biggest, most powerful thing possible? What are your thoughts?
 
My thoughts are that reasonable folks were terrified back then of getting shot with a small caliber handgun of any kind.

Penicillin and other antibiotics had not been invented yet, and a small dirty bullet stuck in your craw was almost certainly a slow painful death from infection.

I have read that experianced gun fighters would prefer a clean through & through wound from a bigger caliber to having a small caliber bullet in the gizzard.

I think another factor was that most fights then were fueled by alcohol, not Crack, Meth, and other pain numbing, mind altering drugs so common today.

rc
 
Bad guys weren't hopped up on meth and crack and what not back in the good old days. That being said, I've got two Colts, each over 100 years old, one in 32ACP and one in 380ACP. I've carried both of them and always felt they'd do the job in a pinch. It's hard to argue with 8 rounds of 45ACP, though.

-Matt
 
Lets see many people have been killed with the lowly .22LR... Most of the time a gun does not even have to be fired...

Everyone has thier "favorate" caliber/gun. All things considered if I could carry a plastic squirt gun (small/light) that IF I needed it would transform into a full size pistol/rifle/shotgun. :)
 
Bad guys weren't hopped up on meth and crack and what not back in the good old days.

Actualy one of the most common drugs during the time of the "Wild West" was laudanum which is essentialy a strong concentration of opium and alcohol in a bottle. It was available without a prescription over the counter in most towns from the local drug store.
At the time it was primarily considered a working class or blue collar drug when abused as it was often much cheaper than alcohol.
As a result many people that could not afford an alcohol problem resorted to it. Being a strong opiate the result was similar to heroine addicts.
It had been widespread in the US since early times, Ben Franklin for example used it regularly due to chronic pain as was considered an addict.
Laudanum use was much more widespread then than drug use is today. It was used by most households in the US as a cure all for aches and pains. Even given to infants to relax them during teething or when crying at night, and marketed for that purpose.

In the mid to late 1800s other drugs were also common. Cocaine was a common drug abused by housewives in the late 1800s. It was considered a cure by many for almost anything and recommended by physicians regularly.
Here is a picture of some sold from your local drug store over the counter:

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It was often marketed for use with children.
Of course that should be no surprise, most Attention Deficit medication today marketed at children is stimulants, primarily Amphetamines (such as ritalin) or similarly acting compounds.

In the 1800s the Chinese settlers also brought with them a lot of Opium smoking and use. China was widely addicted to opium smoking and the British had several wars with the Chinese government to keep it that way. They are known today as the Opium Wars. So most immigrants from China brought the habit with them and it flourished on the western frontier.

Morphine addiction prior to Bayer creating Heroin as a cure was widespread in the mid to late 1800s. It was most common among veterans because they often had widespread use of it during conflicts. Whether from use after being wounded or to dull the stress and problems of war it was a major widespread problem.
It was such a common problem that after the American Civil War of the 1800s it was known as "soldiers' disease".


You better believe someone under the effects of what is essentialy a strong pain killer is not going to be as effected by a gunshot.

Criminals commiting crimes while under the effects of substances is nothing new.
However per capita the murder and violent crime rates back then where much lower even when unregulated drugs were widespread.
The wild west is something of a myth, in that violent crime rates were much lower then than in most major American cities today.
You are far more likely to be the victim of violent crime today in your local downtown city than in any rough frontier town of the "Wild West" and statistics prove this.
 
.25 and .32

How did people protect themselves in the first half of the 20th century? I'm no historian but I'd say most used a suitable knife or cane or something similar. The wee calibers have been around for long time but have never been effective for personal defense. And yes, more have died from the lowly .22 than any other but that's because there are a gazillian .22 guns with many more gun shot victims to it's credit.

Compact handguns in larger calibers did not exist "back in the day." There are plenty to choose from now. Arm yourself accordingly.
 
Well the .22 is a proven killer but it takes time for it to run its evil program.

A big bore round shocks the person which will probably stop them immediately and hopefully take the fight out of them.

They may possibly (more than likely not) recover their senses but by then you will have established the initiative and be ready to pour more rounds into them if need be.
 
A big bore round shocks the person
Why would a 180 pound person be any more "shocked" then a 180 pound deer shot with a big-bore handgun?

You can expect them to flinch, and then run away to die as they bleed out.

Those with big holes bleed out faster then those with small holes.
That's about it.

Quite often, no signs of any "shock" or knock-down going on unless you hit the spine or brain.

rc
 
Zoogster -

A small insight into the "opium wars".

The Brits had an insatiable demand for tea.

China demanded particularly and only silver bullion for same.

Brit treasury was busted by this.

So Brit "free traders" started importing opium to China,

From various Asian outposts.

Once they got the population hooked, it was

Katy bar the door

In terms of trade negotiations with the Chinese Gummint.

To cut the story short, the imbalance of trade created

By the Chinese demand for silver for tea

Was more than offset by the Western supply of Opium,

Paid in whatever coin was most favorable.

There is a fair bit of good history on this.

Read it!


isher
 
Why would a 180 pound person be any more "shocked" then a 180 pound deer shot with a big-bore handgun?

You can expect them to flinch, and then run away to die as they bleed out.

Those with big holes bleed out faster then those with small holes.
That's about it.

Quite often, no signs of any "shock" or knock-down going on unless you hit the spine or brain.

rc

I agree 30,000%

Hunting and actually killing something with a Handgun or even a rifle even in very powerful chamberings will absolutely destroy any delusions you may have previously had about "stopping or shocking power"

"Stopping power" is a term reserved for folks who's never taken something living and tried to make it dead with a firearm.

The fact that someone is getting shot typically shocks them, bad guy's have no idea whatsoever that's stamped on the chamber when the bullets start entering their precious flesh
 
Zoogster -

A small insight into the "opium wars".

I am aware of the history behind it, but I did not want to go into too much detail on that specific issue rather than citing multiple different substance problems to illustrate my point.

Yes the entire situation would lead to the British ownership of Hong Kong and movement of many western settlers and traders there when Shanghai become too dangerous as a base of operation.
 
The idea of a defensive handgun is to STOP an adversary, NOT necessarilly to kill him. (almost any caliber can eventually kill an attacker.) If he's big and strong and/or drugged, or you are being accosted by more then one attacker, you don't want a knife or returned fire to worry about, or have the aggressor physically attack you.

I saw a police video of a cop pulling over a big guy who happened to be a former professional boxer. It was a simple traffic infraction, but the guy immediately resisted arrest, and proceeded to beat the living tar out of the cop, tossing him around like he was a rag......this after the cop shot him point blank in the belly with a .38 special revolver!!!

Still think a .22, .25 or .380 might be good enough? I don't know what they thought years ago....and really don't care.
 
The same argument applies to "bear protection"

Everyone thinks you need a Sherman tank to kill a bear nowadays. Well i guess our ancestors must have just been luck all those years using 30-30's and 45-70's loaded with blackpowder. Bad guys were hopped up on heroin, opium, and cocaine back in the day also. I believe that you should carry what you are comfortable with. No sense in carrying a .500 S&W if you can't shoot the thing! How many gunfights have you been in? I have exactly zero gunfights under my belt, but i choose to carry a .45ACP or .357 Mag for protection. Will they work? Your guess is as good as mine, but i think i'll do alright if the time comes.

Chicken-Farmer
 
A friend of mine who is in Special Forces told me that it's virtually unheard of to stop an aggressor with a single 9mm round, so when they were compelled to use that caliber they always "double tapped." I never quite believed him, until...

I was called upon to kill an opossum that had somehow been injured in our front yard, and was only able to crawl at a snail's pace. (I suspect the dog got him, but he may have been old and had fallen from a tree and broken his back.) I used a 9mm with ball rounds and the first three just caused him to writhe around alot. (All of the rounds hit, but I'm not sure they were all head shots.) I switched to using fragmenting rounds, but it still took two more shots to actually kill the animal, from a distance of about a foot, with my housemate screaming in the background.

It's possible that the short distance and high speed may have caused the rounds to pass through in a not-immediately lethal way, especially the ball rounds, but it was still quite a lesson in the "stopping power" of a 9mm round.
 
A friend of mine who is in Special Forces told me that it's virtually unheard of to stop an aggressor with a single 9mm round, so when they were compelled to use that caliber they always "double tapped." I never quite believed him, until...

When I was young and stupid (I'm no longer young), I once shot an armadillo with a 45 ACP at less than ten feet. He was running at the time. Upon impact, the darned thing rolled up like a doodle bug, and rolled about three times. He rolled back out and kept running without missing a beat. Now, he may have dies 20 feet later, I don't know. My shooting buddy and I just looked at each other in disbelief.

About this time last year, not 100 yards from the spot where I shot the armadillo (20 years earlier), I shot a big Chevy 4x4 right in the radiator. The range was more like 30 yards, and due to the larger size of the critter, I went ahead and applied a double tap. Stopped said truck dead in its tracks. In fact, it immediately began to retreat. Go figure.

What did I take from these two experiences? .45 ACP: Great for shooting BG's big Chevy truck. Armadillos? No so much.

Your mileage may vary.

-Matt
 
The classic pocket pistols of the early 20th century (Colt, FN, Walther PPK, etc...) were simple blowback constructions. While locking pistols like the Luger, C96 or 1911 were available, they were prohibitively expensive compared to contemporary purchasing power. Blowback pistols are only locked by the pressure of the spring, so shooting high recoil rounds would divert hot gas onto your hands and face. Hence the preference for smaller calibers in pocket handguns.
 
Well, I know a guy who shot a carjacker. He shot him with a .40 S&W once in the stomach at a distance of about 3 feet. The man, after being shot said "Oh sh*&!" and began to run away, dropping his gun, and eventually being picked up by the police about 200 yards away in shock, clutching at the gaping wound in his abdomen.

I imagine that story easily could be repeated if one shot a deer in the guts. (I've never gut shot an animal, I wouldn't know)

Truth be told, based upon everything vets of real shootings have told me, I never expect a one shot drop with any handgun. I don't really expect it with a rifle either. Shotgun with "00" buck. Be the most likely. But only because it's the equivalent of being hit with 9-12 .32 bullets at the same time.

Basically, I train to shoot three rounds in a combat scenario with a handgun.
 
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You know I've always been amazed by the nothing smaller than a bazooka argument and every manly person carries huge firearms in their pocket; however I also happen to notice the most scarce ammo these days is the lowly .380acp which no real man would carry....Sorta strange isn't it unless there are a lot more women around than we know about....
 
An aside on stopping power, I once shot a pronghorn with a 130 gr .270 at about 125 yards, right through both lungs and the heart. Pronghorns might weigh 100 pounds.

<thump>

He gave me a dirty look and started walking away. After a few steps he realized he was dead, stuck his horns in the ground and rolled over. That .270 probably generates about 3k foot pounds of power, and it didn't even knock that 100 pound animal off its feet.
 
In those days we carried arms to stop the problem. Some folks would die from these shoots from injuries sustained, just years later. Others would heal over bullet and carry on.

The Rifled and Muskets of the day carried such a large caliber that if you got hit, you can certainly count on the bone being shattered and there was no trauma system or 911 in those days.

Also in those days people were no nonsense and tough; yet practical.

Today? There are some CCW's in my class with smaller calibers. They shoot very well. I might have the BOOM of the .45 ACP against the TAP of a .22 But maybe the ROAR of a bigger bore over in the yonder stall drowns me out.

All speak one language. Self Defense against Bad People who have decided to commit a crime and hurt someone. Loud, Converstational or Quiet. You are still armed.

Some armed perp breaking into my home packing a 22 or a large 44 mag is not going to be evaluated or inspected. A gun is a gun and must be acted upon right that second. We will learn later who had what.

Sometimes larger caliber wins. Sometimes little one between the eyes win.


The important thing in my thinking about Caliber.

SHOOT WHAT YOU CAN AIM CORRECTLY AS BIG AS YOU CAN and still hit that target every time center mass. That paper target will not lie to you.

I recall a man with a .410 Judge revolver. Nice little gun. He eyes my M&P .45 and likes it too. Little dog, big dog. All bark the same. No one will be laughing if either one has to be drawn. And there are some truly big handguns around that test the limits in our state laws. Just a (LEGALLY... magic word here) tad smaller than being TOO BIG to be used against anyone. Hate to go against those.
 
How the heck did people protect themselves back in the first half of the 20th century when they carried 25s and 32s?

Then as now, people preferred not to get shot with anything, large or small. Most bad guys ran away when a gun was pointed at them. Most of the rest ran away or fell down when the first quarter inch hole was punched in their bodies.

When the rare bad guy pressed on to attack after getting shot, folks seldom heard about it. (No internet or TV, few newspapers)
 
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Today we have the option of many calibers for self defense. The trend toward large handgun calibers is comparatively recent.

Making little holes in bad guys was effective back then, just like it is today. Shot placement is very important when the weapon is small caliber.

But back in the first half of the 20th century there were not many options for owning a big bore handgun. Colt .45 single action, Colt 45 acp, maybe a Smith or Colt .38 were the only choices.

Back in the day then, for self defense, folks were restricted to small calibers or SHOTGUNS!

In my home, the defensive weapon of choice was always a shotgun loaded to protect the family from invasion.

We always had two loaded shotguns, everybody knew where the shotguns were located. The whole family was proficient with shooting shotguns.

That was a good home defense system, regardless of the lack of big-bore weapons.
 
I wonder if there were endless arguments at the pubs over the .25ACP vs .32ACP? Or between .45 musket balls and .50 musket balls? (side note, "musket balls" can sound very risque when said aloud)
 
Why would a 180 pound person be any more "shocked" then a 180 pound deer shot with a big-bore handgun?

You can expect them to flinch, and then run away to die as they bleed out.

Those with big holes bleed out faster then those with small holes.
That's about it.

Quite often, no signs of any "shock" or knock-down going on unless you hit the spine or brain.

rc

Psychology of course. Muzzle blast and a harder impact. Many people swoon when they are shot. Some don't. Almost all will break off their assault unless they are in beserk mode from drugs etc etc.

It's funny that the same people who argued with me that a .223 drops a man as well as another caliber because men do not react like deer....

Are the same ones who are now saying that men DO act like deer when shot.

When many pistol rounds are simliar in energy and momentum its difficult to see a definitive difference.

Tell me this and I have said it before

You are going to tell me that if I shoot a 180 lb man with a 12 guage slug center mass he is going to curse and take off running for 200 yards?

Momentum is hard physics. It will not physically move a man to the degree it will move a steel plate but the difference will be felt.

Would you know the difference if someone hit you with a tennis ball and then hit you with a real baseball?

Well i guess our ancestors must have just been luck all those years using 30-30's and 45-70's loaded with blackpowder

Those 45-70 and 30-30 (180 grain round nose) had some pretty impressive effects on animals. The 30-30 was the fastest cartridge of its day. Apparently however when these guys had the chance to get their hands on something more effective they jumped on it.

"Stopping power" is a term reserved for folks who's never taken something living and tried to make it dead with a firearm.

Thats funny because the KO idea came from a man with more hunting experience than you have ever had.

Just like someone mentioned how hard it was to kill a possum. With anything like a .22, 9mm pistol, or a 17 hmr I will go for the head. With something like a .25-06, .308 or a .44 magnum I know I can go for the torso and the possum will be deader than a doornail.

I have killed many possums in my time( probably more than anyone on here) . . Possums are hard to kill. I wouldn't doubt if they aren't harder to kill than a man.

Bigger cartridges are better. It may make a small difference, but that can make all the difference.

Once I shot a groundhog in the head with a .380 at point blank in the head when it stuck its head out of the hole. I knew that was the only way a .380 would keep him from going back in the hole. On another day I had my 12 guage slug gun out and a Groundhog stood up. Slug gun isnt super precise but I figured I could make a torso shot. Dead groundhog.

Deer can take a high powered rifle and run a short distance unless you hit them in the head or spine. I have killed deer with head shots and I have taken them with heart shots. To me a .308 will shorten that deers run more than if I shot it with a .223.

Sure you can kill something with a small caliber but you have to be more precise in your shot placement to make that shot count. In a combat situation you rarely get the opportunity to shoot a person in a small precise spot like the heart or the brain pan. Remember the longer you take to aim the better chance he has to shoot at you as well.
 
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