Old Dog
Member
Yes, but you've also got some members chiming in who are very experienced hunters (many having hunted in extreme conditions) and precision rifle shooters here. Consumers, yes, but we can't discount the experience of all the end users.
What's the Difference in Glass
JFrank
Member
Here is the original question.vv
Deciding on buying a scope for deer hunting this year and I have a lot of great options around $500. But my question is, what is the difference in glass? Most companies have glass made all over the world like Vortex and Burris in the Philippines, Riton and Trijicon made in Japan and China. So does the location it's made make a huge difference or should I worry more about the reticles and other features of the optics?
And here is my post.vv
After reading this thread, it seems clear that we are all just consumers and end users.
One person actually works in the optics field, the rest of us are end users whether hunters or competitors so what part is a problem for you ?
Old Dog
Member
Um, your implication that if one does not work in the optics field one is not expert enough to give you an answer?
The question was basically answered in the first response to the OP and several times thereafter. It simply seemed, based on the remark you make, that all we -- the forum members -- are simply consumers and end-users, which - and I'm sorry if I am incorrect here -seemed to imply that none were expert enough to answer your question.
Regardless, one does not need to work in the optics industry to have an informed opinion of the quality of glass used in rifle scopes. As noted, good glass can come from different companies and different countries, but price is also usually a good indicator of quality, as far as ascending prices marking ascending quality of the glass.
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JFrank
Member
Well I’m not the OP just an end user. If you’re an expert on optics that great , if you’re offended by my honesty I can’t help that. As I said im an end user, I shoot long range and spend a huge dollar on top tier optics but I cannot and will not suggest I’m any kind of expert in optics. Ask me how I like a particular scope that I have personal experience with and I’ll give you my opinion.
I believe we are still on topic here.
I believe we are still on topic here.
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Old Dog
Member
What exactly are you being honest about? That we here are all consumers and end users? I agreed with you. I was trying to clarify what you actually meant, whether or not you were implying that unless someone worked in the optics industry, one is not qualified to render forth an "expert" opinion on optics. Which you didn't answer, anyway.
At any rate, I don't really take offense to any comments on an internet forum from an anonymous poster whom I do not know. As you've stated that you spend huge dollars on top-tier optics, you're essentially agreeing with most of us that when it comes to clarity, quality and durability, you get what you pay for when it comes to riflescopes.
And I know plenty of "end-users" who don't have degrees in, or work as, optical design engineers, whom I still consider to be fairly "expert" when it comes to knowledge of scopes.
hawg
Member
Working or having worked in the optics field "may" have some bearing on high end scopes. I personally don't think so but it doesn't amount to a hill of beans on a 500.00 scope. Are optics better on a high end scope? Absolutely. Can you get a scope for 500.00 or less with decent optics? Absolutely.
$500 will buy a lot of scope these days, so it’s features we’re asking about is the way I read it.
So yes, end users opinions are important when they are relaying real world experience with particular scopes.
My idea of a good hunting’s scope is lower power, bigger field of view, good low light capability. No other fancy features which eat up cost, I’d rather have it in the glass.
I bought a Leica 2-10x50 on sale at half price ($500) to replace the old Leupold Vari-XIII 2.5-8x34 that had served me well, a big upgrade.
So, unless I am wrong, the OP needs to hear actual experience about your hunting scope and why you like it, why one $400 scope is better than this other $400 scope.
Like many who come here asking, they want value and something they’ll be happy with for their application.
So yes, end users opinions are important when they are relaying real world experience with particular scopes.
My idea of a good hunting’s scope is lower power, bigger field of view, good low light capability. No other fancy features which eat up cost, I’d rather have it in the glass.
I bought a Leica 2-10x50 on sale at half price ($500) to replace the old Leupold Vari-XIII 2.5-8x34 that had served me well, a big upgrade.
So, unless I am wrong, the OP needs to hear actual experience about your hunting scope and why you like it, why one $400 scope is better than this other $400 scope.
Like many who come here asking, they want value and something they’ll be happy with for their application.
entropy
Member
Actually, it does make a difference. I can see the differences between the lenses and coatings between a $500 scope and a high end scope.
Do I own any high end scopes? No. I'd love to, but I don't have any needs for one. I got to hunt one year with a Swarovski scope, courtesy of a Swarovski rep. The 30mm tube, 56mm objective lens and the top end glass and coatings would have allowed me to hunt well past legal hunting time (1/2 hr past dusk). There are some who pay for that ability, and I would if I needed it.
Currently, my most expensive scope is a Vortex Strike Eagle, right around that $500 mark. I also have some low end scopes, a Bushnell 3-9 that came with my Axis II, and I still have it on it several years later, despite the fact I keep saying "I should really put a good scope on that Axis sometime...."
So while I can see the deficiencies of a $500 scope compared to a top end scope, for my uses- they suffice.
BushMaster-15
member
Meopta Optika 6 . A Super competitive line of high end optics at more than reasonable cost ,comparatively speaking with other Big Name optics .
https://meopta.store/collections/meopro-optika6-1
BushMaster-15
member
A recommendation to Everyone . Perhaps buying a High End scope once and using QD mounts and shuffling between Rifles is more Cost effective .
I've a Friend who does just that ,decided to pop once with Big Bucks for a Nightforce and bought Quality QD mounts and simply shifts between Rifles .
Not a bad idea considering cost factors of Rifles and scopes now days . I have been fortunate ,in as I stocked up on some higher end vintage Scopes years back and still have a couple of spares . Retrospectively IMO ,I may have made a Bad decision by not going with QD's and a couple of more Higher End scopes ,especially considering the cash outlay I've put into too many Builds . One lives and hopefully learns but in MY case , I'm living with what I now have .
I've got Great quality glass for 20-500 yd. and 50-1K yd. . Just couldn't let that Meopta slip away ,after buying one previously for Dogtown work .
In other words I'm a Dupe for sales
Amen to that, I have stretched the budget a long way at times buying scopes on sale.
JFrank
Member
Me too, I really wish I would have bought a Ziess HD-5 a few years ago when I had the chance, super image quality for a decent price.
When you talk about glass there's other things that have to be considered. I'm very familiar with camera lenses
Plastic vs glass, how are the lenses mounted, cemented or mounted in rings. Waterproof or not.
I have several camera lenses and scopes that are superb. But I wouldn't rely on them with rough usage.
Plastic vs glass, how are the lenses mounted, cemented or mounted in rings. Waterproof or not.
I have several camera lenses and scopes that are superb. But I wouldn't rely on them with rough usage.
JFrank
Member
You make several good points, I would hate to have plastic lens glued in that may come loose under shock or water wicking in or nitrogen leaks out on a hunting rifle, especially in my climate and terrain, nor would I want a scope that can’t take punishment as in being dropped. My current long gun wears a scope that is capable of being submerged in saltwater over night, placed in a freezer for two days and dropped from 6 foot onto concrete and still hold zero and track perfectly. It has 140 minutes of elevation plus a one minute hash mark reticle. I gave $599 iirc, needless to say I’d recommend them whole heartedly.
I had one (2 actually, I sent one back for repair and got a replacement) and swapped it for a Meopta MeoPro. The Zeiss was and is a great scope, but at least to my eye it wasn't quite as nice as the Meopta. Course thats to MY eye and with the particular examples I had.
That Meopta rides around on my primary hunting rifle. I rarely NEED it, but if theres ever a question thats the gun i take.
Actually last trip home i took my .375 that has a Vx3i on it, and had to pass on an early morning thick cover shot, because i couldn't differentiate where one animal stopped and the next started.
Im positive i could have taken the shot with the larger and brighter Meopta, or the nearly same sized Zeiss.
In the end it didn't matter. I shot a different animal in the open 1/2hr or so later, and by then I could probably have done it with any scope that held zero.
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CraigC
Sixgun Nut
For me, it's about way more than just glass and optical clarity. I have a long-standing feud with cheap scopes. I've had at least 7 or 8 cheap scopes fail on me. I've had wildly shifting zero, broken reticles, loose lenses, extreme fish eye, everything but physically breaking in half. They also didn't go tits up after shooting 1000rds of .458's. These were $30-$200 scopes, 30yrs ago and most of them failed on .22's. Add to that two +$200 Vortex Strikefires that went dark. Luckily, the OP's $500 budget gets him way above the threshold for what I consider cheap crap.
EIB0879
Member
My favorites aren't made anymore. I bought scopes that were closeouts and wish I had bought two of each. My favorite is the Meopro 3.5-10x 44mm that I bought from Cameraland. It's the only instance where I bought a scope that was more expensive than the rifle (Mossberg 4x4 30-06 on closeout). Rifle was $292 and the scope $315.
If I was looking for a scope right now I would probably start with a Meopro Optika 5. I also have a Leupold Vari X 3 4.5-14x 40mm on my Sako L691 300 Wby. That has been to hell and back over the last 28 years and I would also look at Leupold scopes. I have never had a scope fail in fifty years plus of hunting knock on wood.
If I was looking for a scope right now I would probably start with a Meopro Optika 5. I also have a Leupold Vari X 3 4.5-14x 40mm on my Sako L691 300 Wby. That has been to hell and back over the last 28 years and I would also look at Leupold scopes. I have never had a scope fail in fifty years plus of hunting knock on wood.
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entropy
Member
Any scope I replace the Bushnell on my Axis will cost more than the rifle did; $29 after rebate, scope included.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Speaking of sales and closeouts. I bought several Leupold VXIII's when our local Gander Mountain closed a few years ago. They were too cheap not to. Also collected a few more that were way under the going rate. Their VXIII 1.5-5x is my favorite and I have a three or four of them squirreled away. Between them, older Burris scopes and out of print pistol scopes, I probably have over a dozen scopes without guns............yet. My first stop at the local shop is the used scope table and I've gotten several good deals off of it, including one of those 1.5-5x's for not much more than a C-note. I went through them all the other day and several times I asked myself, "when the hell did I buy this?". I've come a long way from those days when all I could afford was a $30 Tasco Pronghorn. Which, by the way, is one of few cheap scopes I bought that's still ticking.
BushMaster-15
member
Which begs the age old question of ; How much of a mark up goes into retailing scopes ?.
I mean seriously , most of us know where the reputable retailers are and what a decent quality scope is gonna cost . Two weeks after I buy something ,the Bottom falls out price wise . I swear I'm NOT joking ,it's enviable I buy it and 1-2 weeks later some HUGE sale commences and triple digit savings ,just passed ME by .
So awhile back I came up with the perfect solution . While waiting for a sale on the higher end Meopta's I purchased a decent Meopta 4X20X44 for a hunting scope ,which replaced and older Simmons Atec's . Huge difference in glass quality as well as price but that Atec must of been 35+ years old .
Anyway so I'm hem hawing on the phone with sales personnel and he says ,well Make Me an Offer and I'll see what I can do . So I did and they accepted . Blew ME away . Sure as shootin #10 days later they sent a Email flyer " ON SALE " and that Higher end unit was listed also ,so I get a hold of the same salesman and made him an offer on it . We negotiated on that unit but I was VERY happy with the price we settled on . I also got that 4X20X44 for $32.60 under the sales price ,so didn't feel I got stung .
Still begs the question though " HOW MUCH DO THEY MARK THEM UP " ??.
I mean seriously , most of us know where the reputable retailers are and what a decent quality scope is gonna cost . Two weeks after I buy something ,the Bottom falls out price wise . I swear I'm NOT joking ,it's enviable I buy it and 1-2 weeks later some HUGE sale commences and triple digit savings ,just passed ME by .
So awhile back I came up with the perfect solution . While waiting for a sale on the higher end Meopta's I purchased a decent Meopta 4X20X44 for a hunting scope ,which replaced and older Simmons Atec's . Huge difference in glass quality as well as price but that Atec must of been 35+ years old .
Anyway so I'm hem hawing on the phone with sales personnel and he says ,well Make Me an Offer and I'll see what I can do . So I did and they accepted . Blew ME away . Sure as shootin #10 days later they sent a Email flyer " ON SALE " and that Higher end unit was listed also ,so I get a hold of the same salesman and made him an offer on it . We negotiated on that unit but I was VERY happy with the price we settled on . I also got that 4X20X44 for $32.60 under the sales price ,so didn't feel I got stung .
Still begs the question though " HOW MUCH DO THEY MARK THEM UP " ??.
hawg
Member
If it's anything like jewelry about 300%
I know dealer cost for a small(ish) dealer.HOW MUCH DO THEY MARK THEM UP " ??.
99% of the time, Its about 20-50 bucks cheaper than the Big Dealers online sales prices.
I do wonder how much each unit actually costs to build (tho id assume thats a relatively the smallest part of the actual cost)
I'm down in south Louisiana, so when someone says deer hunting, I'm thinking 200 yards MAX. Usually, 100 or closer. For that, in the $500 range, I'd be looking at a Vortex PST Gen II, 1-6x.
I don't think that anyone can dispute that it's a good scope with way better than good enough glass.
Just because a company touts Japanese glass, it doesn't mean you're getting Vortex Razor or Nightforce quality. Japan can make mediocre glass too. Really, what you're looking for coming out of Japan, is scopes coming out of LOW (Light Optical Works, I believe it is).
I don't think that anyone can dispute that it's a good scope with way better than good enough glass.
Just because a company touts Japanese glass, it doesn't mean you're getting Vortex Razor or Nightforce quality. Japan can make mediocre glass too. Really, what you're looking for coming out of Japan, is scopes coming out of LOW (Light Optical Works, I believe it is).
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
I had an AETEC when they first came out. Worst case of fish eye I've ever seen. It was over $200 then.
I don't know what the mark-up is and don't really care. I don't begrudge people their profit, especially those that produce and sell anything gun-related.
I don't know what the mark-up is and don't really care. I don't begrudge people their profit, especially those that produce and sell anything gun-related.
