What's wrong in this situation?

[Impureclient]

You're shooting a .22LR rifle at 25 yards on a 25 foot target, no wind. Using a scope set at 32X and are set up so that you can watch the crosshairs stay constantly in the center of that target 10 ring that is about 3/16":
Now before, during and after the shot, you are staying almost dead still and keep the crosshairs inside that 10. If the shots are straying way out of the 10, is it the barrel or the ammo?

It doesn't have to be the .22 or that particular target but with any combination at that close with a rifle and you are not moving off target (like a ransom rest), would it be the ammos fault or the barrel?
The gun and ammo in question is a CZ452 UL and CCI quiets. Now I'm not expecting them all to stay in that 10 but if they are hitting outside the black once in a while would that be looking like ammo that is not consistent(match)?

This is not a .22LR question or a rifle question. I am just curious that if the crosshairs never move, is the ammo the obvious culprit?

 

[ColtPythonElite]

Parallax?

 

[MistWolf]

It could simply be the ammo does not match the barrel, assuming all other variables such as action screw torque, bedding, paralax etc., have been eliminated

 

[youngda9]

Can you keep them all in the 10 with any other ammo? If you can then there's your answer.

 

[Impureclient]

No parallex problem, everything is good in that department. I thought bedding was out as the barrel is floating. The action screw torque could be possible though. This is more of like the gun shoots fine and then out of nowhere a bullet will be way off target........The flyer many talk about. The crosshairs are still so I know it's not me moving off target. When somebody speaks of flyers, it seems it's because they moved off target.
This begs the question that after the bullet begins to travel down the barrel, it is just a piece of lead like any other bullet as they are all mostly the same shape. Is accuracy from bullet to bullet just come from how fast it is travelling at that point? Why does a match bullet shoot straighter than a bulk if they are two of the same sized small pieces of the same metal at the same speed from the same gun?
I haven't shot anything in this gun yet but the quiets and CB Long but they group well enough for fun in the backyard and are as quiet as an air rifle. What exactly makes one bullet shoot better in a rifle if everything else remains constant?

 

[wally]

Can you keep them all in the 10 with any other ammo? If you can then there's your answer.

That, or the gun just don't shoot well, or the scope/rings doesn't hold zero.

Of course if you can't do it with any other gun/ammo combination no amount of hardware changes will fix it.


Here's a couple of 50 ft targets 10 shots per group at 50 yards using a 16X scope while seeing what ammo the gun liked:

The target on the left 1-4 are various bulk pack, 5 was CCI Mini Mag. The Target on the right was Wolf Match vs. CCI Green Tag. This 10/22 aftermarket bull barrel really likes Wolf Match, and no real point to paying extra for the Green Tag compared to Mini Mags for it.

 

[youngda9]

The point is that if he CAN do it with another ammo then it is the ammo that the gun doesn't like. If he can't then it could be a host of problems.

 

[Impureclient]

Those groups on the right by Wally with Wolf Match is what I can get with the CCI quiets at my 25 yard backyard range, which I'm happy with considering their cost and low report.
The problem is getting groups like that and one bullet out of every 4-5 groups will just be like a good half inch away from the grouping like it's trying to escape.
What makes a certain bullet shoot better with a certain gun? I've read in here people winning matches with bulk vs others shooting match grade ammo.
That gave me the impression that it really isn't the ammo. There has to be a scientific answer to why some bullets shoot well in one gun and others don't
rather than just saying the gun like that ammo. Why does it like that ammo?

 

[Krogen]

Tell us about the scope you're using. When I hear "a scope set to 32x" I think variable. Not many variable scopes in that power range. They exist, but they are pricey; too pricey for the usual CZ452. Sooo.... I'm guessing this an inexpensive scope that won't hold a zero.

 

[Impureclient]

Mueller 8-32x44 target. I just assumed by 99% of the good reviews I read, it would be sufficient. This doesn't seem scope related as wouldn't the POI be shifting and stay at that point. This is mostly just one out of about every 20 bullets is just wildly off.

 

[M-Cameron]

I've read in here people winning matches with bulk vs others shooting match grade ammo.

there you have to ask what kind of matches people are winning......i can garuantee there is no one at camp perry shooting federal bulk packs.

That gave me the impression that it really isn't the ammo. There has to be a scientific answer to why some bullets shoot well in one gun and others don't
rather than just saying the gun like that ammo. Why does it like that ammo?

in .22lr shooting, ammo is everything. top shooters will lot test boxes upon boxes upon boxes until they find a good lot of ammo they like....and then they buy all of it they can afford.

guns can be so picky, that they can shoot one lot of ammo FANTASTIC, and shoot another lot of ammo TERRIBLE....even if they are the same manufacturer and brand of ammo.


if i were you i would:

1) clean my rifle well

2) buy several brands of another ammo

3) shoot groups with each of them (shoot at least 10-20 shots of a new ammo before shooting for groups, this will season the bore)

4) if all else fails, have a buddy try shooting it and see if he gets similar results.

 

[Impureclient]

Yeah I got impatient and it's dark out so I set up a couple targets at 40 feet(13 yards) inside and shot some Federal Match and got much different results.
It's only half the distance I was shooting outside but it's pretty much one hole. The ones I just shot inside with the quiets, CB long and Remington subsonic
where kind of blaaah but similar to what I get outside at 25 yards. Weird thing is some were worse at 13 yards inside than the 25 outside I normally shoot
with the quiets and Cb long. I did come to understand it's the ammo. This still doesn't answer why one bullet works different than another from the same
gun if everything else remains constant.

 

[Rail Driver]

Yeah I got impatient and it's dark out so I set up a couple targets at 40 feet(13 yards) inside and shot some Federal Match and got much different results.
It's only half the distance I was shooting outside but it's pretty much one hole. The ones I just shot inside with the quiets, CB long and Remington subsonic
where kind of blaaah but similar to what I get outside at 25 yards. Weird thing is some were worse at 13 yards inside than the 25 outside I normally shoot
with the quiets and Cb long. I did come to understand it's the ammo. This still doesn't answer why one bullet works different than another from the same
gun if everything else remains constant.

It's not the bullet, or the gun - it's the quality control and the normal variances between cartridges. There's one guy on here that not only sorts his ammo by manufacturer and lot number, but further narrows it down by sorting for rim thickness and OAL (overall length) as well.

The variances between one cartridge and the next even within the same lot may not be noticeable to a quick (or even fairly detailed) inspection without measuring devices such as a digital caliper.

If you're getting poor grouping shooting from a locked down rest (ie, eliminating human error), then it's either your gun or your ammo. I've heard nothing but good things about the accuracy of CZ rifles, and I'm well aware of the sometimes wild variances in rimfire ammo. Even from one cartridge to the very next one in the same ammo lot there can be significant differences that affect accuracy even if the only difference is a fraction of a grain of powder, or a thousandth of an inch in rim thickness or overall length.

In precision shooting (even close range rimfire shooting) patience is a virtue, and impatience will almost always result in disappointing results. Attention to detail is key, and even details you might not be aware of in order to check can affect your results significantly.

 

[M-Cameron]

This still doesn't answer why one bullet works different than another from the same
gun if everything else remains constant

its because they are not the same.

most .22 ammo from a given manufacturer are all made on the same machines....

Eley tennex is made on the same machines as Eley sport.....for the most part its made with the same bullets, same powder, and same powder. so why is one $9 a box and the other $20?

its because of consistency. the ammo manufacturers lot test all their ammo that comes off the machines, the more consistent lots get a higher price tag, and the lesser lots get the cheaper price tag.


with .22 ammo, you literally do get what you pay for.

 

[Impureclient]

I guess I just don't understand why the same piece of lead that is travelling out of an identical bore can have different accuracy.
How does the rim thickness affect anything besides where the bullet sits inside the breech? Even the OAL of the cartridge,
why does that matter after the bullet is moving? Is it the shape of the bullet that is so consistent because after the gun
has fired it seems like the speed and shape of the bullet is all that matters for accuracy when all else is constant.

Also, M-Cameron, are you saying they are the exact same thing in every way but they find one lot shoots better and they mark the price up?

 

[M-Cameron]

I guess I just don't understand why the same piece of lead that is travelling out of an identical bore can have different accuracy.
How does the rim thickness affect anything besides where the bullet sits inside the breech? Even the OAL of the cartridge,
why does that matter after the bullet is moving? Is it the shape of the bullet that is so consistent because after the gun
has fired it seems like the speed and shape of the bullet is all that matters for accuracy when all else is constant.

thats because its not the same piece of lead...

the bullet weight may differ

the bullet concentricity may differ

the powder charge may differ

the amount of primer may differ

the OAL of the cartridge may differ

all that adds up to accuracy (or lack there of)

its like i said, the more expensive lots of ammo ususally are the most consistent as tested by the manufacturer

and all of that assumes your gun like the particular brand and lot of ammo running through it.

so why do some guns like some brands of ammo and not others? honestly i dont think anyone knows. its like gravity, we all know it exists, but no one can quite explain why.

 

[Impureclient]

Does it take more money, time, tooling, and development to make the more accurate ammo?
If not, why not just copy the most accurate ammo and be done with it. They can't have 10X
more of anything into the more expensive ammo than the bulk to go from $0.04 to .40 a round.

 

[M-Cameron]

Does it take more money, time, tooling, and development to make the more accurate ammo?

short answer,yes.

the main reason youll get variances is do to mechanical tolerances in the machines that make the ammo.

if they were to re-tool all the tolerances in the machines, that costs A LOT of money.....that costs gets transferred to the cost of ammo and thus is repaid by the consumer.

and at the end of the day, you will still have pretty decent variances in ammo, and ammo manufactures will still sort their good and bad lots.


so at the end of the day, the good ammo will still be good, and the bad ammo will be better......with the exception that youd be paying more for both.

 

[JohnBT]

"why not just copy the most accurate ammo"

They do, but a copy of anything is seldom the same as the original.

To touch on a few of your questions, velocity changes the frequency of the barrel vibration and that changes where the barrel is pointed when the bullet leaves the muzzle. Barrels flex as the bullets move through them.

Rim thickness changes how far the nose of the bullet is sitting from the beginning of the rifling and whether it touches the rifling at all. Rim thickness variations affect the ignition of the primer - the firing pin only has so much energy and a thick rim slows it a touch. Everything affects something else.

And on and on.

Here some fun reading on rimfire .22 ammo. Bob Collins is a shooter and an ammo distributor. Speaking of sample lots and figuring out what your gun likes: "Eley by the Numbers"

www.benchrest.com/csaccuracy/eleybythenumbers.html

John

edited to add: It's sort of like making wine - it's easy, but not so easy as saying, "Just copy the good stuff."

 

[browningguy]

With Ely Match at 50 yards:



With CCI mini mags:



Same gun, same range, same day, just different ammo. My guess is your gun just doesn't like that particular ammo.

 

[wally]

Nice example Browninggguy,

For the shooting I do its pretty much never worth the price difference for Ely Match over the CCI Mini Mag if my gun showed that little difference.

OTOH if you aspire to Camp Perry it would be a no-brainier to spring for the Ely.

 

[Kerf]

To answer the question...

Impureclient,
To answer your original question: it’s a bit of both the rifle and the ammunition that is at fault. As previous posters have mentioned, the conundrum lies in the barrel harmonics (time up the barrel) and rim fire headspace (bullet jump, firing pin strike, etc.), which can all be adjusted and improved.

There’s an interesting range test/ammo test article (which you may find informative) comparing a CZ 452 off the shelf with a custom assembled Kidd 10/22 automatic using nine different brands of ammo from inexpensive Blazers to Lapuas with some in-between. All the ten shot groups for both rifles averaged about the same at .365. So one might want to conclude that the two rifles are of equal accuracy with the brands of ammo tested. Yet, the standard deviation for the two rifles varied widely. The stock CZ 452 (I would love to own one) had a low or narrow SD, which means it shot the Lapuas and the Blazers very close to the average .365 for all of the groups fired. OTOH, the Kidd with the high SD, had groups at .5 and some at .2. No need to guess which rifle is inherently more accurate. The article is here:

http://www.dayattherange.com/?p=2384&cpage=1#comment-16624

So, the question becomes: what can be done to remedy the situation? Since the barrel is already installed on the action, you’ll have to consider aftermarket solutions to solve the barrel harmonics issue.

There are barrel tuners, which are threaded to the end of the rifles barrel, that are adjustable and you just dial it in for the most accurate setting; sort of a trial and error approach similar to the Boss system used by Browning. Or, there’s the do-it-yourself barrel tuner that you make and install yourself, which consist of a threaded rod that is clamped parallel to the barrel with a threaded weight that is moved forward or back to achieve proper tuning. This method is somewhat ugly or distracting (kind of ruins eye appeal of the 452) but they work. ( I’ve used three different designs of this type and they all worked well.) If you wish to avoid ugly, there’s another type that is in-letted into the fore end of the stock, beneath the barrel using a threaded rod with a block of hard plastic to apply pressure to the barrel and control the vibrations. I haven’t personally tried the internal version, but I see no reason it wouldn’t work and if I had a 452, I would probably use the internal version. Do a web search for “barrel turners” in images and you’ll see different types of solutions, which might appeal to you.

On the ammo side of the equation: I’ve found that Winchester Dynapoint bulk .22s headspace to within a thousandth of each other, for the most part (say, 450 out of 500, which is what you’ll find with RWS-50). Use a headspace gauge to separate the two sizes and the remaining oddballs can be used to foul the barrel. Once you group the ammo by headspace, you then adjust OAL and bullet diameter using Paco Kelley’s devise, I think he calls it the Accuriz’r or some such name. I use it. It works for me. There you have near match ammo at a dime on the dollar.

So there are about two or three things you can do to make that CZ452 shoot as nice as it looks. Good luck, and if all else fails you may want to resort to Voodoo. (I’ve tried it and it works, sometimes.)

kerf

 

[Impureclient]

Nice article, Kerf. You say "I would love to own one". I really can't recommend for buying a CZ452 though. After I got it, I now just need more of them.
I want all the different barreled and stocked 452s and then duplicates to just hang on the wall and enjoy. The same goes for the CZ handgun. I can't be more
happier with my CZ75b. They really are making some great guns and the only problem is people are catching on, buying them all up and increasing the prices.
My first .22 was a 10/22 and I hardly even shoot it now after getting the CZ452. I may just sell the 10/22 for money towards another CZ.

 

[Kerf]

I hope what I wrote will help you squeeze a little more accuracy out of the 452. It's such a fine gun.

Yeah, those 75bs are real sleepers; my brother has one from a local gunshop. I won't mention the price in public. Let them keep sleeping.

CZ makes many fine guns; their quality is high and the prices are moderate. With the Yankee dollar going south internationally, the prices are bound to rise quickly. I have my eye on about four different models, the 452 is one, and I'd really like one in 9.3x62 mm, one of my favorite cartridges.

kerf

 

[r1derbike]

You guys sound like me with my most accurate .22 pre-charged pneumatics. Special order sized pellets from Germany, each head diameter micrometered. Weighed. Rolled on a mirror for any thumpers, blown lead dust (before weighing, and finally stacked on foam with cushioning cutouts.

My best 5 shot group at 50 yards on a windless night was .110 in. CTC.

Rifle was a Benjamin Marauder .22 with 6-24X 50mm side focus scope, bipod, and rear rest. The rifle weighs almost 12 lbs. Prep on the rifle is time consuming, cleaning bore with patches until they come-out surgically clean, then fire several lead cleaning pellets, (ammo above), before it settles into its most accurate PSI string graph. No recoil at all, none.

It has been flawless on critters at night, expecially with my slung 200 yard flashlight. Accuracy is an obsession, not to be taken lightly, no matter the tool. Fully shrouded/baffled barrel. Emits just a slight "ping" when fired when the hammer opens the reservoir valve. Some guys put a de-pinger in the reservoir made of clear tubing, that keeps the pneumatic reservoir from resonating.

Only thing I may shoot in the city limits for critter control, and nobody knows it.