What's wrong with 147 gr Hydrashocks?

[wally]

Some of the early 147gr loads were very underpowered (even subsonic). More modern 147's are typically loaded hotter.

The speed of sound is approximately 1100 fps, offhand, I can't think of any 147gr 9mm loads that actually chrono above this in pistols. 1100 fps would be about 395 ft-lb of energy.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

One of the main problems with any of the short barreled guns is the reduced velocity of rounds being fired through the shorter barrel.

As unintuitive as it seems, 147gr suffers less velocity loss when fired from shorter barrels than 124gr and 115gr.

...and one in the eye that stopped at the socket.

Ummm... NO unless the particular cartridge was defective (inadequate propellant charge).

Some of the early 147gr loads were very underpowered (even subsonic).

230gr .45 ACP and 180gr .40 S&W are also "subsonic". The problem with early 147gr bullets was poor bullet design, which was resolved when the IWBA developed the four-layer denim test to force ammo makers to design bullets that expand more robustly.

 

[planetmobius]

Ummm...Yeah. They are lousy defensive rounds. I read the ME report.

 

[481]

Buffalo Bore has one at 1175 fps if I am not mistaken.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=120

 

[Shawn Dodson]

Ummm...Yeah. They are lousy defensive rounds. I read the ME report.

A 9mm 147gr bullet traveling at 950 fps has about 300 foot/pounds of kinetic energy. If it stopped in the eye socket then there's more to the story. There was something else that caused this kind of terminal performance than it merely being a 9mm 147gr bullet. It may have passed through an intervening obstacle before it struck the offender.

Modern 9mm 147gr JHP bullets deliver excellent terminal performance.

 

[planetmobius]

Nope, no intervening obstacle. Rounds traveled line of sight directly to the target (no pun intended). One failed to penetrate the cranium, others hit center mass and failed to penetrate to any vital organs. He was wearing jeans and a T-shirt. Some of the misses hit the house behind the subject and were recovered just underneath the vinyl siding. I was one of the lead investigators and know the case inside and out. You can cite all of the numbers you want but our real life experience with this round has been dismal. The 147 gr hydrashock was a failed attempt to turn the 9mm into a 45. Real life performance was so bad that it caused a drastic although reluctant revision of our firearm policy.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

One failed to penetrate the cranium...

I can believe this if it struck and an angle.

...others hit center mass and failed to penetrate to any vital organs.

I'm still throwing the BS flag on your claims.

 

[rbernie]

Not trying to call anyone a liar, but I cannot accept as fact an assertion that a 147gr Hydroshock would not penetrate 'to the vitals' on a center-mass hit of someone dressed in a t-shirt unless the shot was taken from such a long distance that the round itself had shed most of its velocity or had hit an intermediate barrier along the way. Simply put, I'm not aware of ANY 9mm non-frangible round that lacks adequate energy and mass to penetrate the thoracic wall of a lightly-dressed human of reasonably standard dimension.

If anything, the Hydroshocks tended to OVERPENETRATE due to lack of expansion - not underpenetrate.

 

[dbp]

I have a Beretta Nano, and have heard they don't like 115 gr bullets as much as heavier ones (and my own experience backs that up, had a couple of FTEs with 115 gr Blazers while the 124 gr and 147 gr American Eagle performed flawlessly).

I have a Nano and had the same experience with 115 vs 124 for target use. I picked up a box of 135gr Hornady Critical Duty and they fed and performed perfectly in the Nano. I now use them for carry ammo.

 

[jpruitt]

I have a Nano and had the same experience with 115 vs 124 for target use. I picked up a box of 135gr Hornady Critical Duty and they fed and performed perfectly in the Nano. I now use them for carry ammo.

Critical Duty was the only 9mm SD round they had for sale besides the Hydrashocks. I thought those were intended for full-size semi-autos thoough. If they had any Critical Defense I would have grabbed that up in a heartbeat.

 

[dbp]

Critical Duty was the only 9mm SD round they had for sale besides the Hydrashocks. I thought those were intended for full-size semi-autos thoough. If they had any Critical Defense I would have grabbed that up in a heartbeat.

I have run both Critical Defense and Critical Duty through the Nano and can't tell the difference really.

 

[mr.trooper]

It takes approximately 60 (six zero) foot pounds of energy to penetrate the skull of the average adult male, according to my forensic texts on terminal ballsitics...

This is accompanied by copious photographs of a human skull that was obliterated by a tear gas canister at close range (hand held CN grenade, propelled from a launching cup at low velocity by a blank - very low KE numbers compared to firearms cartridges).

300 foot pounds of energy from even a sub sonic 147gr 9mm is far in excess of what is needed to penetrate an eye socket (even a .22LR or 25acp can do that).

 

[1911Tuner]

Let's look a little closer before we assume things.

Removing expansion from the equation...which may or may not happen, depending on a few variables...that would make it the near ballistic twin to the .38 LSWCHP +P at its advertised velocity of 940 fps. My chronograph testing hasn't shown that the round will consistently break 900 in a 4-inch barrel. The 147 Hydra Shok has made 920-930 from my High Power, which is the only 9mm that I own, aside from the P38 war trophy that my father brought back from the Ardennes...and I don't shoot it very much.

I only tested the one lot of HS and two lots of the .38 Special...one each Remington and Winchester...so others may produce different readings. Allowing for variables, I take the results as more of a comparison than actual velocity figures. Both calibers were tested on the same day under the same conditions.

The .38 LSWCHP +P has delivered adequate penetration in most cases, even when it expanded. I would expect that the 9mm round would pretty much match that penetration in a given situation, all else assumed to be equal in an unobstructed shot. Clothing...Body mass...angle of entry, etc. Mass/momentum is mass/momentum, regardless of caliber, and caliber and frontal area are close enough to call it equal. The target would never know the difference.

 

[RBid]

Bottom line:
Hydrashoks are an old design, with less consistent performance than modern rounds (HST, Gold Dots, Ranger T, PDX1) are delivering.

There is no reason to go with Hydrashoks, with better choices on the market.

 

[TonyT]

I prefer the 147 gr. in 9mm since it makes less noise and comes back faster on taret for a second shot.

 

[C0untZer0]

The 147gr Ranger "T" Series - RA9T is a great performer in my opinion.

Muzzle Velocity = 990 fps

Penetration - Bare gelatin: 13.9"
Expansion: .65"

Penetration - 4 layer denim: 14.5"
Expansion: .66"

Penetration - Heavy cloth: 14"
Expansion: .66"

Penetration - Wallboard: 15"
Expansion: .67"



http://www.winchester.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/flash-SWFs/law_bullit.swf

 

[481]

For those who want to see the whole thing:

 

[M1key]

"old school"



M

 

[Madcap_Magician]

I like HST and Ranger-B 147-gr. standard pressure.

 

[Deer_Freak]

If I am shooting 147 gr 9mm ammo for SD I wouldn't waste my money on HP ammo. The tests performed by Winchester were done under carefully controlled circumstance. After all their posters wouldn't look very cool if the bullet didn't expand.

A friend shoots IDPA with 147 gr Berry's HP bullets. He has recovered them. He reports they didn't expand at all. He carries 124 gr store bought ammo for SD. He is still reloading the Berry's for IDPA. He gets them cheap. He can shoot them real fast and accurate. But he doesn't trust his life to them.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

The tests performed by Winchester were done under carefully controlled circumstance.

With modern bullet designs there are numerous reports that when they're recovered from a human body after a shooting they closely resemble the same bullets that have been tested and recovered from properly prepared and calibrated ordnance gelatin using the four-layer heavy denim test protocol.

He has recovered them. He reports they didn't expand at all.

They're not designed to expand unless they penetrate a fluid medium, like water and soft tissues.

 

[481]

If I am shooting 147 gr 9mm ammo for SD I wouldn't waste my money on HP ammo. The tests performed by Winchester were done under carefully controlled circumstance. After all their posters wouldn't look very cool if the bullet didn't expand.

Of course, Winchester's testing was done under carefully controlled circumstances- testing in calibrated gelatin requires strict control of test medium's temperature and viscosity and it must also be calibrated to ascertain that it is within specifications. If you believe that Winchester's strict control of test conditions amounts to manipulation of the result, you couldn't be more incorrect- that is just simply not the case.

Even with such control, some JHPs will not expand. Look at the Winchester Ranger .380ACP JHPs fired through wallboard and plywood- if Winchester was manipulating their data and willing only to portray expanded JHPs, they wouldn't have included those results in their chart.

 

[Phaedrus/69]

If you have a bunch of Hydra-shoks laying around I wouldn't throw them out. But if you're buying new stuff I'd go with the HST. Most places I've shopped the Hydra-Shok stuff costs at least as much as the newer stuff and isn't as good. I don't think it gets much better right now than the HST.