johnbmwe34
member
Or what type of mods do you have to have to use those 147 gr??? How do your gun handle it compare to the reg 115 or 124 gr? What about + P(+) ammo, are they safe for your gun (9mm i refer to)? Thanx
9MM 147 gr, Have anyone ever used 9mm 147 gr for their guns? What type of gun....?
- Thread starter johnbmwe34
- Start date
- Status
Hkmp5sd
Member
I use the 147 gr. Federal HydraShok and 147 gr Black Talon (still have several boxes from before they became notorious and expensive) for CCW in my Glock 17 and S&W 9mms. I like the idea of a heavier 9mm bullet with less chance of over penetration.
Using the +P+ ammunition really depends on the firearm it's being used in. Some guns can handle it and some cannot.
Using the +P+ ammunition really depends on the firearm it's being used in. Some guns can handle it and some cannot.
Mike Irwin
Member
147 is best used in my experience with full-size guns, those with the long barrels.
It may not reliably expand when fired from short barreled guns.
It may not reliably expand when fired from short barreled guns.
cratz2
Member
Typically, a heavier, slower bullet will feel more like a push and the lighter, faster bullets have less of a push and more of a flip. In full size guns like my Taurus PT99AF, there is very little difference... the smaller, lighter-weight guns such as the poly Kahrs, the +P+ 115 grainers are very flippy.
I typically not a compromise sort of guy... I like the 9mm and the 45ACP over the 40S&W for example. But with 9mm for carry, I like the +P 124 Gr Gold Dots and the +P 127 Gr Rangers.
As far as the ammo being safe... if you're gun is a modern steel gun from a major manufacturer, I'd say they are probably just perfectly fine. If it's a 1970s manufacture alloy gun, maybe not so much so. Thing is, if you can afford to feed your gun a steady diet of +P+ ammo, then the cost of replacing the gun every couple years probably shouldn't be overwhelming.
What model gun do you have, what ammo do you have your eye on, and how many rounds are you planning on putting though it? Or are you in the 'planning stages'?
I typically not a compromise sort of guy... I like the 9mm and the 45ACP over the 40S&W for example. But with 9mm for carry, I like the +P 124 Gr Gold Dots and the +P 127 Gr Rangers.
As far as the ammo being safe... if you're gun is a modern steel gun from a major manufacturer, I'd say they are probably just perfectly fine. If it's a 1970s manufacture alloy gun, maybe not so much so. Thing is, if you can afford to feed your gun a steady diet of +P+ ammo, then the cost of replacing the gun every couple years probably shouldn't be overwhelming.
What model gun do you have, what ammo do you have your eye on, and how many rounds are you planning on putting though it? Or are you in the 'planning stages'?
M90A1
Member
Remington 147 gr. Golden Sabers work perfectly in all of my Hi-Powers, be they Browning, FN, FEG, or ARCUS. The Winchester and Federal 147s that were used by the Navy in their MP5SDs several years ago, also worked flawlessly in the same pistols.
I should have said they functioned flawlessly in my pistols. These are the first generation hollowpoints designed for the SEALs, and it was discovered, later, that they did not function very well as a law enforcement round. It seems the SEALs used them for head shots, and were more interested in penetration than they were in expansion. That's where the 147's reputation came from for over-penetration. Later bullet designs for civilian use put an end to that problem.
I should have said they functioned flawlessly in my pistols. These are the first generation hollowpoints designed for the SEALs, and it was discovered, later, that they did not function very well as a law enforcement round. It seems the SEALs used them for head shots, and were more interested in penetration than they were in expansion. That's where the 147's reputation came from for over-penetration. Later bullet designs for civilian use put an end to that problem.
Last edited:
dude
Member
I happliy use Fiocchi 147g and Winchester sub-sonic 147g in my P7
Serpico
Member
I use 147 ranger sxts in my P7....I had to put in a stiffer recoil spring for the last round feed problem and for good measure I put +10 mag springs in it also...works fine now...
mrming
Member
Picked up a box today. Will let you know how it does out of my xd9 when i get back tomorrow.
dude
Member
no idea
Hkmp5sd
Member
There is no difference. The 147 gr. is subsonic when fired from handguns. Way back when, the Seals wanted a subsonic round to use in their suppressed MP5 submachineguns. Over time, this morphed into the common 147 gr you see today. Depending on the barrel length of a carbine or subgun, the 147 can still be supersonic.
Marketing and perception have caused many to think the subsonic 147 is some kind of special round.
Marketing and perception have caused many to think the subsonic 147 is some kind of special round.
DonGlock26
Member
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2003
- Messages
- 259
I use 147gr Speer Golddots in my issue P228 and personal P225 & G-26. The modern 147gr JHP's give good penetration and expansion performance.
Mike Irwin
Member
"Marketing and perception have caused many to think the subsonic 147 is some kind of special round."
Bingo. I referenced that recently in another thread.
When the military began using the 147, some police forces immediately latched onto it as the greatest thing since sliced bread.
Unfortunately, what those police forces failed to take into account was the fact that the military was using the round for HIGHLY specialized purposes, not for general conditions that would be met in the streets of an American city.
The result was some pretty spectacular failures with the 1st generation of 147-gr. hollow points.
Enter the FBI testing, and Winchester and Federal.
Based largely on the FBI testing Winchester and Federal both designed second generation 147s, which more closely met the needs of police forces, and which provided a MUCH higher liklihood of expansion even at modest velocities.
Bingo. I referenced that recently in another thread.
When the military began using the 147, some police forces immediately latched onto it as the greatest thing since sliced bread.
Unfortunately, what those police forces failed to take into account was the fact that the military was using the round for HIGHLY specialized purposes, not for general conditions that would be met in the streets of an American city.
The result was some pretty spectacular failures with the 1st generation of 147-gr. hollow points.
Enter the FBI testing, and Winchester and Federal.
Based largely on the FBI testing Winchester and Federal both designed second generation 147s, which more closely met the needs of police forces, and which provided a MUCH higher liklihood of expansion even at modest velocities.
All this said, what is reason for using something at a modest velocity versus high velocity? Less penetration with good expansion? Similar characteristics to .45 230g ball? Accuracy?
I've never tried 147g in any of my 9mm's, I have found that 124g works better in one of them, but 115 works best in the others ("works" meaning consistent accuracy to me).
I've never tried 147g in any of my 9mm's, I have found that 124g works better in one of them, but 115 works best in the others ("works" meaning consistent accuracy to me).
The 147-grain JHPs perform (in terms of penetration or expansion) just like (or in some cases a little better) than the rounds with a higher MV (including the 357 Sig). They offer good section density, and in my experience, good accuracy. Though I don't think it matters personally, they are not +P for those who are hung up on that issue. They are generally a little easier to shoot and have less muzzle blast/flip than (may have something to do with the better accuracy) than the high velocity stuff.
You really have the best idea though. Try and see what works for you in your weapon. If the 147-grain, gives you good reliability, accuracy and speed go for it. If the 124-grain work best, use it. There is not enough difference in the effective of the various .36s (9x19 and 357 Sig) to even begin to get excited over!
mrming
Member
147 gave better accuracy for me in my Xd9. Havent located any 124's to try yet...
CONSIDER, IF YOU WILL...............
Let's take that .355" 147g bullet and launch it from a 4" 357 revolver at its advertised 940fps.
Now let's take a 'conventional' 124g +P+ load and do the same.
Lesseenow............a 147g going 940fps..........or a 124g going 1270fps............?
Let's even go stupid (I can do that): a 147g +P+ going 1120fps or a 124g going 1370fps...........now choose.
Let's take that .355" 147g bullet and launch it from a 4" 357 revolver at its advertised 940fps.
Now let's take a 'conventional' 124g +P+ load and do the same.
Lesseenow............a 147g going 940fps..........or a 124g going 1270fps............?
Let's even go stupid (I can do that): a 147g +P+ going 1120fps or a 124g going 1370fps...........now choose.
stans
Member
The 147 grain subsonic 9mm was originally developed for the U.S. Navy Seals for use in sound suppressed weapons. The FBI, in their infinite wisdom, latched onto the round and proclaimed it the ultimate 9mm. Why did the FBI adopt the 147? Because it had greater penetration than 115 grain JHP ammo. 147 grain ammo may be better at penetrating walls, car doors, and glass, but that is not the typical defensive scenario for average Joe Citizen.
I tried some 147 grain ammo in my TZ-75 Series 88 during the frenzied switch to heavy 9mm bullets. I was less than impressed. It functioned ok, but the slide seemed sluggish. Accuracy was good, but no better than Federal 9BP 115 grain JHP. Since I was not an LEO, I decided to stick with the 115 grain ammo and not worry about having to shoot through car doors and such.
I tried some 147 grain ammo in my TZ-75 Series 88 during the frenzied switch to heavy 9mm bullets. I was less than impressed. It functioned ok, but the slide seemed sluggish. Accuracy was good, but no better than Federal 9BP 115 grain JHP. Since I was not an LEO, I decided to stick with the 115 grain ammo and not worry about having to shoot through car doors and such.
Ala Dan
Member in memoriam
Carry Ammo-
My former department issued the 147 grain Winchester
"Black Talon" ammunition for 9m/m Glock's (17 & 19),
SIG's (P226 & P228), H&K USP's, and Ruger's. However,
I don't say that it was the best performer!
Some
weapons seemed to like the lighter 115 and 124 grain
JHP's; such as the Federal Hydra-Shok's.
Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member
My former department issued the 147 grain Winchester
"Black Talon" ammunition for 9m/m Glock's (17 & 19),
SIG's (P226 & P228), H&K USP's, and Ruger's. However,
I don't say that it was the best performer!
Someweapons seemed to like the lighter 115 and 124 grain
JHP's; such as the Federal Hydra-Shok's.
Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member
Albert Shear
Member
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2003
- Messages
- 204
I took 8 different brands and weights of 9mm to the range 2 weeks ago ranging from 115 to 147gr. The single most accurate load out of the Beretta Elite I was using was the Speer GoldDot 147gr standard pressure.
Why use subsonic, why not?
Well as mentioned the Seals liked it because it works better in suppressed weapons.
But really just an aspect of the cartridge. Go to the heavier bullet it takes up a little of the space that could be powder. Combine that with the heavier bullet being pushed, and something that is a bit supersonic with lighter bullets becomes sub-sonic with heavier bullets.
Whether it is sub or super sonic in defensive use in pistols isn't really significant. The heavier bullet will penetrate deeper while still expanding well than the very light very fast bullets. As a side effect yes it may penetrate car doors or glass better.
Bottom line a well designed 147 grain will penetrate deeper while expanding and therefore provide the largest most effective wound channel more often than lighter bullets. Some evidence also that slower heavier bullets are less picky about whether they expand well if the target has heavy clothing or such.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/9mm.htm
For other calibers:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/ammodata.htm
Be sure and scroll down to the lower half of these pages.
Look here for some test data. Unfortunately not all tests are
complete. Read the section about the testing too.
Well as mentioned the Seals liked it because it works better in suppressed weapons.
But really just an aspect of the cartridge. Go to the heavier bullet it takes up a little of the space that could be powder. Combine that with the heavier bullet being pushed, and something that is a bit supersonic with lighter bullets becomes sub-sonic with heavier bullets.
Whether it is sub or super sonic in defensive use in pistols isn't really significant. The heavier bullet will penetrate deeper while still expanding well than the very light very fast bullets. As a side effect yes it may penetrate car doors or glass better.
Bottom line a well designed 147 grain will penetrate deeper while expanding and therefore provide the largest most effective wound channel more often than lighter bullets. Some evidence also that slower heavier bullets are less picky about whether they expand well if the target has heavy clothing or such.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/9mm.htm
For other calibers:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/ammodata.htm
Be sure and scroll down to the lower half of these pages.
Look here for some test data. Unfortunately not all tests are
complete. Read the section about the testing too.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
