What's your opinion on cast lead hollowpoints?

[forrest r]

That loaded-backward .44 caliber 220 grain Hollow Base Wad Cutter interested me.
Many years ago, I read a defunct pulp gun magazine article by a police officer who carried a snubby Colt New Service in .45 Colt.
He used a 250 grain soft cast HBWC loaded backward to a velocity of 850 FPS, which he referred to as a cup point load.
Reportedly, It was extremely effective, and did expand nicely.

Those 220gr hbwc's are real thumpers when cast out of 8/9bhn alloy doing +/- 1000fps out of a snubnose 44spl.


I do cast hbwc's for the 32cal's/35cal's/41cal's/44cal's/45cal's. A picture of 4 of them that I cast. was out of the 41cal's when I took this picture. The green hbwc (bottom right) is a 230gr cast hbwc for the 45acp/45lc.


Those 45cal hbwc's are the cat's meow when loaded hot for a custom 8 1/2" tc contender bbl.

 

[Old Stumpy]

Those 220gr hbwc's are real thumpers when cast out of 8/9bhn alloy doing +/- 1000fps out of a snubnose 44spl.

Ouch! That would sting a little.

 

[Mostly Lead]

Do you think it's worth the effort ...

I once heard the definition of "hobby" described as: doing the simplest things in the most difficult way possible.

If you're enjoying the journey of discovery - then yes, it's absolutely worth it.

Statistically, few people find reloading anything to be worth the effort and simply buy factory ammo. (wonderful people, especially when they leave their once fired brass neatly piled on the bench )

 

[Old Stumpy]

Statistically, few people find reloading anything to be worth the effort and simply buy factory ammo. (wonderful people, especially when they leave their once fired brass neatly piled on the bench )

It's an odd attitude, considering the savings possible. I can't count the number of times that I have seen comments on other forums, such as:
1) I don't have the time, so I refuse to do it.
2) It would cost too much money to start reloading, so it's not worth it.
3) I live in an apartment, so I can't reload.
But they also said:
1) Factory ammo for my rifle or revolver is so expensive. I can hardly afford to shoot it. What to do? What to do?
Obviously, none of these objections to reloading is valid, although bullet casting in an apartment might be out.
And, the cost of a good single stage press and reloading set-up is the price of one decent new revolver.
The savings, amortized over a couple of years, pays for the whole shebang.
The cartridge case is 50% of the cost of a factory cartridge, and it can be reloaded quite a few times.

 

[35 Whelen]

Before you go out to buy a drafting pencils or a hardness tester, download this Excel-based lead alloy calculator from the Cast Boolit site. I've used it extensively and verified it's calculations of mixes with my Cabine Tree tester, it is plenty accurate.

Where HP's are concerned, we don't just want a soft bullet, we one that is soft enough to expand yet malleable enough that it doesn't go to pieces. My method has always been to soften clip-on wheelweights (COWW)with pure lead, then to add 2% tin. My mix is typically 9 lbs. lead, 1 lb. COWW and 3.2 oz. of tin, which will yield a Bhn of about 9.5.

I've never bothered testing my bullets in gel or newspaper as I personally don't think any test is as accurate as actually shooting game.

Todays HP molds by MP and NOE are a far cry from the old Lyman HP molds and have reversible pins so one can cast either HP or solid nose bullets, and are infinitely faster and easier to use than the old Lyman molds. Now to the good stuff-

.357 Carbine Mold from MP-
Great mold with three different HP pins. I cast some of the large HP version to 9.5 which weighed 162 grs., checked and lubed, and loaded them to 1700+ fps in my Rossi carbine. Shot a sow at 40-50 yds with the bullet entering high in the left shoulder and coming to rest under the hide on the off side.






Copy of Lyman 429244 HP from MP-

I love this mold and bullet. I cast it too at 9.5 Bhn and the large HP pin yielded a bullet weighing about 243 grs. Loaded to a little over 1100 fps in my 7 1/2" Uberti Flat Top .44 Special it is extremely accurate out to 75 yds. Had hoped to get a longi-ish shot during deer season last year, but my meat buck walked out at 38 yds. I hit him behind the left shoulder as he quartered forward and he dropped at the shot, not taking a single step. The bullet broke 2 ribs entering, passed through the lungs, broke another rib penetrated the off shoulder and came to rest under the hide.





Copy of the RCBS 45-270-SA from MP-

Used the large HP pin which resulted in a 265 gr. bullet at 9.5 Bhn. Ran it around 1050 fps out of a 5 1/2" Uberti Bisley.

Whitetail buck shot at 48 yds. Bullet struck a little high in the right shoulder, clipped the bottom of the spine then came to rest under the hide on the opposite side.





Also shot this javelina at the same range, but the bullet passed completely through with no evidence of expansion.



One common factor here is the lack of penetration due to the large frontal area of the bullets once they expand. I've shot other game with solid SWC's out of .44 Special's and .45 Colt's and the bullets whistle right on through, and still kill effectively.

So all that said, I don't see much use in HP's in the field and likely won't use them anymore except in the .357 which needs all the help it can get for making a larger hole, and since it's bullets typically are driven at much high velocities than the other two cartridges I use, more penetration might be expected. I will however continue to use them in SD loads.

35W

 

[forrest r]

Pretty good post the there 35 whelen, a lot can be learned from it.

The alloy calculator is only as good as the knowledge of the metal your using. Last year I was given a little over #100 of lead ingots. They weren't marked and who ever made them wasn't around to ask what they were. That lead alloy calculator was no help, it couldn't tell me what they were nor could it test them. I could of bought a $120 lead tester like you did but instead I opted to buy a $5 set of pencils like these
https://www.amazon.com/Royal-Langni...t+pencil+sets&qid=1553654041&s=gateway&sr=8-7

Glad you posted pictures of your bullets. The 9.5bhn/large hp/357 bullet clearly shows it was the wrong alloy & hp for the velocity of the load. When you said "we don't just want a soft bullet, we one that is soft enough to expand yet malleable enough that it doesn't go to pieces." That bullet is a perfect example of just that. It's odd that the base of the bullet looks like it never had a gc on it, rifling lines too clear. Along with the grease groove is over compressed/too small. A sign of too soft of an alloy for the load/pressure being used.

The larger 44/45cal bullets survived better simply because the were in the right velocity range (+/- 950fps) upon impact for that 9.5bhn alloy.

When your shooting animals in the +/- #60 range (button bucks & javelina) at pretty much point blank ranges (50yds) you can get away with a lot of things. Now I understand why your swc's and fn are going thru the animals and coming out the other side. Use those same loads on a #200+ buck @ 100yds and your going to be tracking blood trails for the rest of the day.

 

[35 Whelen]

Pretty good post the there 35 whelen, a lot can be learned from it.

The alloy calculator is only as good as the knowledge of the metal your using. Last year I was given a little over #100 of lead ingots. They weren't marked and who ever made them wasn't around to ask what they were. That lead alloy calculator was no help, it couldn't tell me what they were nor could it test them. I could of bought a $120 lead tester like you did but instead I opted to buy a $5 set of pencils like these
https://www.amazon.com/Royal-Langni...t+pencil+sets&qid=1553654041&s=gateway&sr=8-7

Glad you posted pictures of your bullets. The 9.5bhn/large hp/357 bullet clearly shows it was the wrong alloy & hp for the velocity of the load. When you said "we don't just want a soft bullet, we one that is soft enough to expand yet malleable enough that it doesn't go to pieces." That bullet is a perfect example of just that. It's odd that the base of the bullet looks like it never had a gc on it, rifling lines too clear. Along with the grease groove is over compressed/too small. A sign of too soft of an alloy for the load/pressure being used.

The larger 44/45cal bullets survived better simply because the were in the right velocity range (+/- 950fps) upon impact for that 9.5bhn alloy.

When your shooting animals in the +/- #60 range (button bucks & javelina) at pretty much point blank ranges (50yds) you can get away with a lot of things. Now I understand why your swc's and fn are going thru the animals and coming out the other side. Use those same loads on a #200+ buck @ 100yds and your going to be tracking blood trails for the rest of the day.

I have plenty of pure lead, COWW and pure tin to make HP's, and I don't and would never make HP's from an alloy of unknown hardness. I have ingots I was given whose content is unknown, but I can either use my tester or when they won't fit in my tester, guess at the hardness and use them for solid handgun bullets.

There was nothing wrong with the alloy used for the .357 bullet. We could argue that maybe I should've cast the bullets using one of the smaller HP pins, which would've slowed expansion, but since I shoot the rounds in a pair of 4 3/4" revolvers as well as the carbine, I have to compromise. I'm not about to cast one type bullet for the carbine and another for the revolvers. Regardless of what the bullet looks like, it shoot 2" 100 yd. groups with the Rossi carbine and doesn't lead the barrel at all. And FYI the gas check is still on the bullet. (The bullet just happens to be on a sitting on a bookshelf just above my computer monitor at this very moment) It's an old Lyman brass gas check that blends in well with the lead, and what you're seeing is not a grease groove, rather the driving band just ahead of the check. That bullet performed surprisingly well considering what was asked of it. The sow came out at dusk, from the west. So I was trying to line up sights on a black hog when it was nearly dark, and I was looking directly into what was left of a bright horizon. It's a miracle I hit her at all and that is the reason the bullet struck high. I just cut out her straps and took one shoulder and therefore didn't perform a post mortem, but I feel sure that little bullet encountered quite a bit of bone. I shot a doe with last December with the same bullet cast with a smaller HP. I didn't find the bullet so cannot say for sure whether or not it expanded.

I guess you missed it, but the 44 and 45 caliber bullets had a MV of 1100+ fps and 1050 fps, respectively. One simply cannot compartmentalize cast HP's by saying this alloy for this velocity, etc, because the shape of the HP plays such a critical role.

To the untrained eye the little buck looks small, he wasn't a button buck, rather he was a 1 1/2 year old spike who netted 60+ lbs. of boneless meat, so I'm not sure what you're referring to when say one can get away with a lot of things. And you must be a much better shot than I, because I practice constantly (I have my own ranges at my house) at 50 and 75 yds. and certainly don't consider them "point blank" ranges with iron sighted revolvers. I'd love to see some of your long range handgun targets, I might learn something.

Regarding your comment about 200 lb. deer at 100 yds., several years ago I shot a nice buck behind the house with an 1873 Uberti Short Rifle in .44 Special. He was a smidge over 100 yds. and the 255 gr. SWC with a MV of a little over 1200 fps struck the buck in the left flank at about 1050 fps and travelled all the way to the juncture of his neck and his right shoulder:





I don't know how much he weighed, but he was plenty big and if you look closely at the picture, you can see where the bullet stopped:



He didn't go far and I found him in a matter of a couple of minutes.

Anyhow, how's I'd love to see some of the HP's you've recovered from game, I think the comparisons would be interesting.

35W

 

[forrest r]

I have plenty of pure lead, COWW and pure tin to make HP's, and I don't and would never make HP's from an alloy of unknown hardness. I have ingots I was given whose content is unknown, but I can either use my tester or when they won't fit in my tester, guess at the hardness and use them for solid handgun bullets.
Just because you have plenty of lead doesn't mean everyone does. Nice thing about the $5 pencils, ingots don't have to be able to fit into the $120 machine. The actual bullet itself can easily be tested with a pencil.

There was nothing wrong with the alloy used for the .357 bullet. We could argue that maybe I should've cast the bullets using one of the smaller HP pins, which would've slowed expansion, but since I shoot the rounds in a pair of 4 3/4" revolvers as well as the carbine, I have to compromise. I'm not about to cast one type bullet for the carbine and another for the revolvers. Regardless of what the bullet looks like, it shoot 2" 100 yd. groups with the Rossi carbine and doesn't lead the barrel at all. And FYI the gas check is still on the bullet. (The bullet just happens to be on a sitting on a bookshelf just above my computer monitor at this very moment) It's an old Lyman brass gas check that blends in well with the lead, and what you're seeing is not a grease groove, rather the driving band just ahead of the check. That bullet performed surprisingly well considering what was asked of it. The sow came out at dusk, from the west. So I was trying to line up sights on a black hog when it was nearly dark, and I was looking directly into what was left of a bright horizon. It's a miracle I hit her at all and that is the reason the bullet struck high. I just cut out her straps and took one shoulder and therefore didn't perform a post mortem, but I feel sure that little bullet encountered quite a bit of bone. I shot a doe with last December with the same bullet cast with a smaller HP. I didn't find the bullet so cannot say for sure whether or not it expanded.
Myself, I don't mind changing pins on the mihec molds, caveman simple to do.

I guess you missed it, but the 44 and 45 caliber bullets had a MV of 1100+ fps and 1050 fps, respectively. One simply cannot compartmentalize cast HP's by saying this alloy for this velocity, etc, because the shape of the HP plays such a critical role.
No didn't miss the MV part, I had no idea you had the chronograph at 50yds and 75yds respectively. I assumed you had the chronograph setup 10ft/15ft from the muzzle. Last I knew big slow moving bullets from the 44/45cal revolvers would loose 100fps+ @ 50yds, hence the +/- 950fps statement.

To the untrained eye the little buck looks small, he wasn't a button buck, rather he was a 1 1/2 year old spike who netted 60+ lbs. of boneless meat, so I'm not sure what you're referring to when say one can get away with a lot of things. And you must be a much better shot than I, because I practice constantly (I have my own ranges at my house) at 50 and 75 yds. and certainly don't consider them "point blank" ranges with iron sighted revolvers. I'd love to see some of your long range handgun targets, I might learn something.
Don't shoot to much long range anymore, planned on doing a little this year. Nothing special, 3" 10-shot groups @ only 100yds. I do still shoot nra bullseye & free pistol @ 50yds. But that's nothing exotic like what your doing, only 1 handed with iron sights. About the only thing I do pistol wise that would even come close to what you do with your revolvers in use a contender to go up against the smallbore rifle guys. What a 40yd chicken looks like.

The contender I use next to a 100yd ram. Kinda fun to go up against the "I'm a hunter types" and beat the pants off of them with a pistol when they they're using their bestest small game rifle.

Anyway that ought to put this buck @ 130+ pounds if you got 60# of boneless meat of it.

Regarding your comment about 200 lb. deer at 100 yds., several years ago I shot a nice buck behind the house with an 1873 Uberti Short Rifle in .44 Special. He was a smidge over 100 yds. and the 255 gr. SWC with a MV of a little over 1200 fps struck the buck in the left flank at about 1050 fps and travelled all the way to the juncture of his neck and his right shoulder:

View attachment 833275

View attachment 833276

I don't know how much he weighed, but he was plenty big and if you look closely at the picture, you can see where the bullet stopped:

View attachment 833277

He didn't go far and I found him in a matter of a couple of minutes.

Anyhow, how's I'd love to see some of the HP's you've recovered from game, I think the comparisons would be interesting.
Don't bother hunting anymore, quit 20+ years ago. Still have a bunch of friends that deer hunt & they keep me supplied with all the meat I want. I don't dig the bullets out of the vermin I dispatch with a short bbl'd firearm/snubnosed revolvers or the longer shots with the large caliber revolver/223rem/308w bullets. No need they've already been tested in wetpack and have proven affective. What they do in the field only confirms what the tests have shown.

35W