Wildalaska
member
Anything from .22 on up
WildheadshotAlaska
WildheadshotAlaska
When Absolutely Have to Stop Bad Guy, What Auto Cartridge?
- Thread starter Higgins
- Start date
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Hmmm. Odd that you don't hear any reputable national firearms instructors advocating head shots. Those nicompoops all seem to be stuck on this "COM, fire til the threat is gone" nonsense.
Strange. Must be because they are such pansies they can't bear the thought of killing anyone, so they prefer to endanger an officer's life by teaching them less than reliable methods of gunfighting. Yeah, that's it.
Erik Jensen
Member
.50 BMG (it's auto, right?), headshot. 
Gordon
Member
" Strange. Must be because they are such pansies they can't bear the thought of killing anyone, so they prefer to endanger an officer's life by teaching them less than reliable methods of gunfighting" Yeah, that's it! Uh sure guy, it just could not be the FACT that almost NOONE can during the stress of a REAL WORLD GUNFIGHT hit a bobbing and weaving 4" target when you are bobbing and weaving. Why the heck do you think Jim Cirrullo is world famous? Do you know how much target shooting it took to get there? AND only one on many millions has the nervous makeup to apply such markmanship under tactical stress! :banghead:
:banghead:sanchezero
Member
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2002
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- 555
Hmmm. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe nearly all of the big boys of firearms training teach a failure to stop drill of some kind. A headshot is an integral part of such a drill; in fact it could be argued that the COM hits are really just to get the guys to stop all that bobbin' and weaving so you can put his lights out.
AnchorYanker23
Member
My choice?
Winchester 230 grain RA45TP out of 1911. 'Nuff Said.
Winchester 230 grain RA45TP out of 1911. 'Nuff Said.
denfoote
Member
.45 ACP 230gr Winchester USA JHP out of my Glock 30.
I practice head shots, don't you?????
I practice head shots, don't you?????
Kahr carrier
Member
45 ACP -HYDROSHOCKS.
Uh, Gordon? That was sarcasm. Sorry you missed it. BTW, help us out here: the QUOTE function is easy to use. Check the left side of the screen for an "Enhanced Mode" button. Use that and your posts will be much easier to read. Like this:
You're moslty wrong. COM til he drops is SOP. See Gordon's post for WHY. I know there are some (many?) who think they're so good that this doesn't apply to them ("I'm so rock solid I can shoot as well under the stress of combat as I do on my best day at the range!") but those who have BTDT don't buy it.
IF things are stable enough for a head shot - get over the idea that any head shot is a sure stopper. The sinus cavities actuallly make a pretty good bullet trap. The brain stem is actually lower than that anyway. A shot through the teeth is more likely to reach it. If you have a good penetrator (like a .357) you've got a much better chance with a headshot than with something like a 9mm, especially if you are shooting FMJ.
A head shot is a luxury. If it becomes clear that the BG is wearing a vest, of course you don't continue to pour lead into COM. Neck or head becomes a good choice at that point.
You're moslty wrong. COM til he drops is SOP. See Gordon's post for WHY. I know there are some (many?) who think they're so good that this doesn't apply to them ("I'm so rock solid I can shoot as well under the stress of combat as I do on my best day at the range!") but those who have BTDT don't buy it.
IF things are stable enough for a head shot - get over the idea that any head shot is a sure stopper. The sinus cavities actuallly make a pretty good bullet trap. The brain stem is actually lower than that anyway. A shot through the teeth is more likely to reach it. If you have a good penetrator (like a .357) you've got a much better chance with a headshot than with something like a 9mm, especially if you are shooting FMJ.
A head shot is a luxury. If it becomes clear that the BG is wearing a vest, of course you don't continue to pour lead into COM. Neck or head becomes a good choice at that point.
You've styled this old question in a fresh way, but the answer's the same.
It isn't the tool, it's the craftsman.
If I ever find myself shooting at a BG, it's a situation where I absolutely have to stop him, and I'm not going to have the luxury of using anything but what I happen to have at the time. In a self stuffer, that will be anything from .32 ACP 71gr FMJ up through .45 ACP RBCD.
Oh, and I won't be wasting time or ammo shooting at COM either....
(If the BG is too far away for a head shot, he's too far away to be shooting at.
)Smoke
Member
45acp.
Big hole theory.
Big hole theory.
LeonCarr
Member
Whatever you use, use the LeonCarr-3F method of shooting. Fire 'til the Felon Falls.
Given a choice, I like the 30mm GAU-8A on the A-10 Warthog.
Just my .02,
LeonCarr
Given a choice, I like the 30mm GAU-8A on the A-10 Warthog
.Just my .02,
LeonCarr
Hmmm. I see I have a choice here. I can listen to the consensus advice of men who have spent their lives shooting and teaching to shoot, which includes getting regular input from hundreds of gun battles every year, studying it, discussing it with other professionals, trying new things and seeing what really works in the REAL world....
Or I can listen to others.
Give me a nanosecond to consider that....
standingbear
Member
how bout 50 Action express from a desert eagle....
Since you asked:
"Regardless of other concerns like available platforms, concealability, reliability, etc...., if you absolutely had to stop a bad guy, what "standard" semi-auto cartridge/load would you choose? .45, 10mm, 9 mm, ?"
I think 00 Buck in a 12ga semi auto should do the job.
Was this a trick question?
"Regardless of other concerns like available platforms, concealability, reliability, etc...., if you absolutely had to stop a bad guy, what "standard" semi-auto cartridge/load would you choose? .45, 10mm, 9 mm, ?"
I think 00 Buck in a 12ga semi auto should do the job.
Was this a trick question?
9mm, .40, or .45
Usually Winchester 147 Ranger, Remington GS 165 grain, or Remington GS 230 grain respectively.
But gosh, I guess I've been wasting all this time with these standard calibers. I didn't know "Magic Bullets" existed. And the secret formula; More Power and Bigger Bullets. Duh. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
Wow this really changes my perspective. I'm gonna have to look into strapping one of those big Desert Eagle's to my side.
Usually Winchester 147 Ranger, Remington GS 165 grain, or Remington GS 230 grain respectively.
But gosh, I guess I've been wasting all this time with these standard calibers. I didn't know "Magic Bullets" existed. And the secret formula; More Power and Bigger Bullets. Duh. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
Wow this really changes my perspective. I'm gonna have to look into strapping one of those big Desert Eagle's to my side.
What...no depleted uranium core ammo????
Hey all you Desert Eagle fans! Where you gonna carry that thing? In the new colonic holster designed by gay gents?
Um, gotta have it with you.....handguns are handy! The size you can pack and control.....it's gotta be a .45 auto...something with an Officer frame(personally) barrel length...take your pick.
Guess the Ten m/m would do too, but I have 1911's and like 'em, and carry one every dang day....got no reason to switch.
I'll take the 230 JHP's, plus P's.
If I knew caca was happenin', then I would have a reliable semiauto RIFLE with soft points in my hands!!
Head/hip Failure drills are common place and commonsence. So are stong/weak hand only. Not optimal for sure, but lets face it, if ya gotta start shooting....optimal has failed! Then it is time to rely on training, and hope you got your rockthrower not your nice light Keltec .32!!
Jercamp45
Hey all you Desert Eagle fans! Where you gonna carry that thing? In the new colonic holster designed by gay gents?
Um, gotta have it with you.....handguns are handy! The size you can pack and control.....it's gotta be a .45 auto...something with an Officer frame(personally) barrel length...take your pick.
Guess the Ten m/m would do too, but I have 1911's and like 'em, and carry one every dang day....got no reason to switch.
I'll take the 230 JHP's, plus P's.
If I knew caca was happenin', then I would have a reliable semiauto RIFLE with soft points in my hands!!
Head/hip Failure drills are common place and commonsence. So are stong/weak hand only. Not optimal for sure, but lets face it, if ya gotta start shooting....optimal has failed! Then it is time to rely on training, and hope you got your rockthrower not your nice light Keltec .32!!
Jercamp45
WonderNine
member
.25ACP.
Accept no substitute.
Accept no substitute.
Sylvilagus Aquaticus
Member
I'd want a pulse rifle in the 40 watt range.
Regards,
Rabbit.
(edit added) heehee...this is my 333'rd post. Does that make me half a beast?
Regards,
Rabbit.
(edit added) heehee...this is my 333'rd post. Does that make me half a beast?
HBK
member
9mm. Put it through the left eyehole, through the bottom of the skull, bounce it off the top of the skull (scrambling hte brains in the process), exit the right eyehole. Guaranteed one shot stop.
I would feel comfortable with any of the popular service calibers (9mm, .40, .45, 357 Sig) when properly loaded, ie: Ranger, Federal Tactical, Gold Dot, ect........
It shouldn't be a question of which caliber is capable of performing best, but rather, which caliber is one capable of performing their best with. Ammunition exists that performs well in any of the calibers mentioned. However, none of them will compensate for poor shot placement. If bullets are not well placed, caliber will quickly become a moot issue.
Service caliber handguns are relatively underpowered defensive tools, and being that rifles and shotguns have failed, expectations of what their capable of should be realistic instead of Hollywood.
A related story that may be of interest.
David over at ammolabforum, posted of an irate hostage taker who had a pistol to a woman's neck. A sniper was given the green light to shoot, but the shot was apparently complicated by the BG holding the woman very close into his body as well as other hostages being present in the room. The sniper's weapon was a .308 rifle utilizing a 168gr bullet, he opted for a face/head shot, the bullet struck the BG's lower jaw/face area literally taking it off, the damage done being described as horrific, the BG looking like something out of a horror movie. However, the BG had enough time to get shots off, striking the hostage in the neck, before stumbling to the ground and expiring. Fortunately, the hostage survived. Prehaps if the sniper was able to place his shot COM, or more in the center head area, it would have been lights out instantly. Though as was mentioned, the shot was complicated by how the woman was being held.
The BG did of course die, though before doing so, he was still able to seriously injury his hostage. If a .308 rifle with less than ideal shot placement failed to instantly incapacitate despite inflicting a "horrific" wound, what should are realistic expectations of a service caliber handgun be? Particularly, if our shots are not well placed.
Best, jnb01
It shouldn't be a question of which caliber is capable of performing best, but rather, which caliber is one capable of performing their best with. Ammunition exists that performs well in any of the calibers mentioned. However, none of them will compensate for poor shot placement. If bullets are not well placed, caliber will quickly become a moot issue.
Service caliber handguns are relatively underpowered defensive tools, and being that rifles and shotguns have failed, expectations of what their capable of should be realistic instead of Hollywood.
A related story that may be of interest.
David over at ammolabforum, posted of an irate hostage taker who had a pistol to a woman's neck. A sniper was given the green light to shoot, but the shot was apparently complicated by the BG holding the woman very close into his body as well as other hostages being present in the room. The sniper's weapon was a .308 rifle utilizing a 168gr bullet, he opted for a face/head shot, the bullet struck the BG's lower jaw/face area literally taking it off, the damage done being described as horrific, the BG looking like something out of a horror movie. However, the BG had enough time to get shots off, striking the hostage in the neck, before stumbling to the ground and expiring. Fortunately, the hostage survived. Prehaps if the sniper was able to place his shot COM, or more in the center head area, it would have been lights out instantly. Though as was mentioned, the shot was complicated by how the woman was being held.
The BG did of course die, though before doing so, he was still able to seriously injury his hostage. If a .308 rifle with less than ideal shot placement failed to instantly incapacitate despite inflicting a "horrific" wound, what should are realistic expectations of a service caliber handgun be? Particularly, if our shots are not well placed.
Best, jnb01
New_comer
Member
Ditto what HBK said.
9mm
Two to the heart...
and fourteen to the head, seven into each eye.
That should stop him.
I'm off...
9mm
Two to the heart...
and fourteen to the head, seven into each eye.
That should stop him.
I'm off...
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