What do you do when you've got a gun in your face?

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This is really the sort of thing where each situation has to be evaluated independently--too many variables to sort out. My reaction depends on our relative positions, exact distance, if the BG has "friends", if I have wife or child with me, and just my gut feeling as to whether he's likely to shoot or not.

I took a point shooting training camp with a 30 year LAPD vet who's done the draw-against-the-drop several times and lived to tell about it, so I have a few more options if I decide that running or talking or giving him what he wants isn't the best way out. We spent a whole day reacting to exactly this, consisting of slapping his gun hand away while drawing your own and firing from the hip, and continuing to fire while you bring it up to normal level. You can also grab his gun hand with your off hand and force it to the inside, and bring your strong hand up with the muzzle resting on your weak forearm (you sweep yourself doing this, so practice with an airsoft gun, but the risk is better than getting shot). You can get a slight element of surprise by drawing in the middle of a sentence, most people want to either talk/listen or act, not both at the same time: "Whatever you want just please don't hur.... BANG!". Getting "off the X" by moving helps too, and in such tight quarters it seems to work well to move towards and through the guy at an angle while pushing him away, he's not expecting that. One thing for sure, if I do have to draw against someone with a weapon out, no warning will be given before I fire.
 
Just my half-informed opinion:

Hand-to-hand is the best way to go initially, as opposed to just pulling your gun (if you have one) IMO. Assuming you (in that situation) feel de-escalation is futile. I'm trying to save my life, not end both our lives by pulling my gun, shooting him, and getting shot. Obviously H2H and gun can be used in conjunction, but primarily my goal would be getting the sights off me.

Krav Maga guys say that a knife in H2H is more dangerous than a gun. They can both kill you, but a gun is much harder to aim/use at close range with someone trying to disarm you. If you step out of the line of fire of a gun at 3 feet, you have bought yourself time...a trained knife fighter won't let you buy time.
 
"Whatever you want just please don't hur.... BANG!".

That is awesome advice.
 
Mindset is your most potent weapon. Second is your muscle memory skillset.

Excellent!!!!!!! If you think you are a victim in a given situation, or think like a victim, you become one.

Brownie
 
Take the gun away from him.

Check the link, in post #13, I do just that, and the BG [ in this case an LE ] knows I'm going to attempt it which the real BG would not know making this even easier to perform.

http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/...read.php?t=155

edited to add: Talking about it and actually showing people you can pull it off succesffully on demand is very different. I've been training others in this skill since 1981 as well as a gun from behind which few train others in.

Brownie
Click to expand...

THAT was awesome! And I feel compelled to add - it leads to a video clip, and YMMV, but for me it IS dial-up friendly!!! Just took a couple minutes to DL.
 
LKB3rd,

Thats a close variation of the skills the mentors gave us. That'll work. I like to get the body off line a little faster, and that video shows the disarmer with his hands at the guns height, which may or may not be realistic to expect where in the clip I provided the link to, my hands are at my side.
Click to expand...

I think what you would do is say "whoa buddy (hands up) i ain't gonna.." BAM disarm.
Or even just rehearse it in your practice: gun drawn, hands up as if you are submitting, then do the disarm.
 
Green Lantern,

Appreciate the thoughts sir.

I took a point shooting training camp with a 30 year LAPD vet who's done the draw-against-the-drop several times and lived to tell about it

Darth Muffin:

I've trained with that guy myself. The DATD is an excellent skill set to have in your bag of tricks when you want to coordinate a response that inlcudes both the hand and gun skills simultaneously. I was very fortunate to have trained with him and learned the skill.

Didn't know many knew about that one.:D

and just my gut feeling as to whether he's likely to shoot or not.

A gun in your face is NOT the time to attempt to be clairvoyant. If you have the DATD training, there's no need to be IMO:uhoh:

Brownie
 
The following is a true story.

When I was 18 or 19 I had stopped by a friends house after I got off from work. I didn't own a gun back then but, I had some knowledge and couldn't wait to get one. If I DID have one, I might not be here today.

It was Friday, about 4 in the afternoon on a really nice summer day, in your typical middle class Long Island neighborhood (my left eye just started twitching as I'm remembering and writing this). When I got to his house, he was out front washing his car. It was an old (66-67?) GTO, blue with a white rag top, really nice.

We were kind of new friends, I had only known him for a few months. We were just hanging out, drinking some beers when a car pulls up to his house. Nothing strange, I just assumed it was one of his other friends that I hadn't met before. The guy starts to walk over to us and my friend goes, "What's up!" The guy says, "Where's so and so (I don't remember the girls name)?! My buddy is like, "What are you talking about...I don't know." The guy comes back with, "Yeah? Well I saw her car parked in front of your house all night."

They continue to argue and my buddy finally starts with the, "Get the hell out of here...butt kicking, etc" routine. The guy starts to walk back to his car. It was only maybe 8 feet away to our right. The door had been left open and the car was running the whole time. He leans in and grabs a 1911 off the seat or console or something...we couldn't see into the interior the way the car was parked.

Anyway, out he comes with the gun raised and I felt my blood drain from my head to toes...I said, "Oh F***!" The guy is crying and shaking and I was absolutely positive that it was all over. It happened so fast that I still can't believe it. Me and my friend both just froze. The guy was RANTING and pointing the gun, back and forth at both of our faces...maybe 3 feet away. I remember thinking how impossibly large the opening of the barrel looked.

If you ever saw the movie "Sharkey's Machine", one of the guys in it tells a story about when he was in uniform. He went to a domestic dispute and winds up with a 357 pointed in his face. Burt Reynolds asked him, "What did you do?" He says, "I gave him NOTHING...I just...disappeared."

That's EXACTLY what happened with me....I gave him NOTHING...I just...disappeared.

He calmed down a little, dropped the gun to his side, turned, got in his car and drove away. I started to shake uncontrollably.

I told my "buddy", "Call the cops." He wouldn't...refused. I find out later he was growing pot in his backyard...unreal. Didn't see each other that much anymore.
 
Didn't see each other that much anymore.
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Good choice.

Reminds me of John Farnam's admonition, "Don't hang around stupid people or go to stupid places." You had no way of knowing what kind of person you friend was. Looks like you lucked out the first time something bad happened and learned your lesson. As you get older and wiser, you learn that when two guys are arguing over girlfriends, you're probably at ground zero for something stupid to happen. Best to take the cue immediately and GTHOOD. ;)
 
What are your thoughts as to this guy's technique
Click to expand...

The problem with this vid is the typical problem I see with lots of other martial arts demos: the subject of the disarm is cooperating BY DOING THE VERY THING WE TRAIN OUR BEGINNING STUDENTS NOT TO DO! He's handing him the gun by sticking it out at arm's length.

I teach folks not to do that in CCW class. If it were realistic training, that movement would be executed while the guy was holding the handgun in retention position. Do you not think the BG's study what we're teaching?
 
good point, SACP, but what if the bad guy does present it that way, does it look effective?


In one of his other vids he talks about retention and holding the gun close to your own body I believe. I would have to review his vids. Wondering if they are worth spending time on though.
 
Instead of wondering about what-ifs, why not try the gun disarms at home?

Awhile back I saw some of the YouTube and Brownies' videos on disarms and tried them at home using one of my son' toy guns and my wife. The toy gun had a hammer which dropped if the trigger was pulled. I tested action/reaction because my wife wouldn't appreciate it much if carried a disarm through and broke one ofher fingers or worse;)

To make a long story short, when the gun was within about 3/4 of my arms-length reach, I could get a hand on it and the muzzle pointed away from me every time before she could pull the trigger- starting with my hands at my sides. Its almost comical because she knew what was coming every time, but the human brain simply isn't fast enough to process a stimuli such as a movement and start a reaction in the amount of time it takes to do the disarm.

She tried the same with me and yes, it worked every time.


At distances longer than about 3/4 of my arm's length, the odds got worse for me with more distance. mainly because I had a more difficult time gripping the pistol and it was easy for her to recover and shoot. This was done standing on flat feet, I'm not sure if closing the distance while trying a disarm might help, but it seems like proximity is your friend.
 
Nickotym,

IMO, that vid clip disarm involves too much movement [ time ] by the disarmer to take control of the weapon. He is not contolling the weapon immediately by striking to the BG's face first [ taking an unnecessary "step" in the disarm process IMO ].

The primary objective, IMO, is to take control of the weapon immediately as you move off the line of the muzzle [ they should both happen simultaneously ].

I have a one handed disarm that strips the weapon away from the BG as well. That can be used if the weapon is presented close to the BG's body as in a retention position, or if he extends as in the vid clip.

I think it would work in limited situations as the vid shows, but then in that clip, the gun is stripped and he doesn't have control of the BG, let alone full control of the firearm if and when a struggle follows. The last place I want to control a firearm in a fight is under my armpit, denying the ability to use that arm to defend with or drop the gun to the deck in doing so.

Brownie
 
cracked butt,

I teach that if you can touch the weapon without moving your feet [ it's within your reach ], it's a disarm situation. If it is beyond your reach, it's no longer a disarm skill thats required.

Glad to hear you and your wife were able to replicate the disarm from watching the video clips and they were helpful.

Brownie
 
Even if you comply with the BG, there's no guarantee they won't shoot you anyway, so I'm not just gonna stand there and go down without a fight. If you attempt to talk your way out of the situation, you might not ever know whether your attempt to deescalate the situation by compliance was successful.

The tactics I'd employ would depend on how close the BG was to me.
 
"Hey Buddy Look it's pamela anderson naked!!!"

It works in the movies ;-) Sorry I couldn't resist.
 
There are so many opinions here as to become comical since there is no way to know exactly how a BG will present. 3/4 arms length? 5/8? Sideways gangsta style? 2 feet? 10 feet? 15 feet?

Seriously... do you think BG's don't know not to get within arms reach too? They have most likely been violent their entire lives and now to stay out of range of a punch/grab/etc. Most of the actual shootings that take place in my Mogopolis are reported as being from 10 to 25 feet and a very significant percentage are from behind to to the head. They don't give a shiite whether you live or die, are harmed or not.

They are not going to give you any chance. To think that they are going to give you an out is to be naive in the extreme. I have one question and one short story:

Question: Brownie, who are "The Mentors" and why do you talk about them and yourself in the 3rd person plural?

Story: I have had a loaded gun pulled on me 3 times in my life. Twice on the freeway in the middle of the night (job requirement... no choice about not being in 'bad neighborhoods) by apparent gang bangers looking to do me harm. Whether they were displays or active 'about to shoot' threats never entered my mind. I saw "GUN" and just reacted instantly. I avoided harm the same way both times.... by slamming on the brakes and getting off of the freeway and driving away faster than they could follow - which they both tried.

The other time was by an irate woman. And I mean out of her mind mad. Now I am not saying this is a good technique... it is simply what same to mind at the time: She was point MY gun at me... a loaded Python and threatening to blow my head off standing in the kitchen. I had a set of keys in my hand so I very calmly stated, 'come on...you don't want to point that at me....' while I tossed my keys on the counter... she glanced at them and I lunged.

I grabbed with my right hand, turning it out of her right before she could react. I pushed her in the center of her chest and she fell back on her butt. She was incensed and I was safe. I started shaking instantly as I unloaded the gun and put the rounds in my pocket before I did anything else.

FWIW this was long before CCW or any training whatsoever. What I did was purely instinctual and that is why I think so many comments here are funny. If you don't train, you really have no idea how you will react. All this talk is just that. It's all talk unless you KNOW what you are going to do and in many different circumstances.

In your face from 2 feet? I doubt it. From 10 feet... from across the car... from the back of the car to the door? All much more likely and one jumping move of your hand to your hip will surely result in HIS gun going off first.
 
Question: Brownie, who are "The Mentors" and why do you talk about them and yourself in the 3rd person plural?

"I" is not third person sir. My mentors were from various walks of life, and all worked in the real world with real world skills they used on a daily basis, but what does THAT matter who they were really, they were mentors and they gave us varied skills to stay alive on the streets a long time ago now. I provided a link to a vid clip of one of those skills in this thread.

For instance: I teach that if you can touch the weapon without moving your feet :D

Seriously... do you think BG's don't know not to get within arms reach too?

I'm not concerned if they know or not, I'm only concerned that the skills are there [ in this discussion ] if they get within range.

There are so many opinions here as to become comical since there is no way to know exactly how a BG will present. 3/4 arms length? 5/8? Sideways gangsta style? 2 feet? 10 feet? 15 feet?

This discussion is focused on ONE way they MAY present, not every way possible.

Most of the actual shootings that take place in my Mogopolis are reported as being from 10 to 25 feet

Thats not germain to the subject of this thread being discussed here though.;)

and a very significant percentage are from behind to to the head.

Thats an assisination, and again, not germain to this thread.;)

If you don't train, you really have no idea how you will react

Actually, training does not open a window of knowledge as to how you will react in the real world. Real world experiences are the only way to KNOW how you'll react, as you've reacted that way in the past and have a history behind you.

Training gives one an opportunity to react and increases the chances IF you re/act, you'll be better prepared to succeed, no more or less.

From 10 feet... from across the car... from the back of the car to the door? All much more likely and one jumping move of your hand to your hip will surely result in HIS gun going off first.

It's called FoF training, I'm sure you've heard of this. It's not disarming skills we'll use when it's "from 10 feet... from across the car... from the back of the car to the door", and again not germain to this discussion sir.

Glad you find this threat comical, but that might not be the case if you were to stay on topic and not digress into other areas of discussion.

Brownie
 
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Brownie, all of my questions were not actually pointed at you... just the one. They were rhetorical, but I do appreciate your input.
But:
Yes, a few times, once in California in January 1984 while on an EP assignment. It was taken away immediately without hesitation [ just like the mentors trained us ]. He was then arrested by LA County Deputy Sheriffs. Had to fly back out to LA to tesitfy some 3 years later on that matter.
Click to expand...

....that is most definitely 3rd person and plural.

The rest like I said wa rhetorical, but what is germain and not is like I have to say here all the time a matter of perspective. The OP asked:
What do you do when you've got a gun in your face?
Let's say you find yourself in a situation where someone is pointing a gun at you. Doesn't really matter who or why. (besides a cop) You have a gun in your pocket. What do you do? Pull your gun and tell the BG to drop his? Or pull your gun and start shooting without giving him a chance to react?
Click to expand...


My perspective is not that somone is touching my face with a gun. It is that they are pointing a gun at my face and I believe it much more likely that it will be from a distance, so I had BETTER care about what I think the BG knows. If he is like your training film touching me or nearly touching me, that is a whole 'nother set of circumstances than if he is a car away.

My entire point about training is that you will have a better idea about how you will react... thus the training. If you don't believe that, then why do you advocate and teach training?

If one does not train, they really have no idea. With training you have an idea, because you have trained. Is that even arguable? I mean, YOU believe you know how you will react, no? Whether or not one follows through with his training depends on many things... how much they train, how serious they were about it and what is inside of them in time of crisis.

Anyway... I don't mean to beat a dead horse. I still find all the opinions humorous since none of us can know with 100% certainty until it happens. Even then there is no guarantee if it happens again under different circumstances - and aren't the chances very high they will always be different?
 
Markbo,

My perspective is not that somone is touching my face with a gun.

Nor is it my perspective that it's touching my face based on the OP's statement of "What do you do when you've got a gun in your face?" [ in your face doesn't mean it's necessarily touching you as you suggest ], hence the statement I made about being able to control the weapon if I can reach out and touch it [ that means it is in my face to my thinking, even if it's pointed at my gut :D]

That can be at arms length [ about 2 feet away from me ], and I can also take one step off line and reach it within the arms reach [ when the gun is 4-5 feet away from my person as well ]. It's more difficult the further away it is, but the mindset is the same which is to not to allow yourself to be muzzled any longer than necessary as you are theoretically dead as long as it is muzzling you.

If he is like your training film touching me or nearly touching me, that is a whole 'nother set of circumstances than if he is a car away.

I agree with you. If the gun is within reach, it's a disarm thats available. If it's past that distance, we are talking other FoF skills [ tactics ] to effect getting him to not muzzle me.

My entire point about training is that you will have a better idea about how you will react... thus the training

I'm not sure I agree with you completley here though. As I stated earlier "Training gives one an opportunity to react and increases the chances IF you re/act, you'll be better prepared to succeed. Thats diffferent, IMO, than understanding how you will react. Your thought is mental preparedness, while my thoughts on this are physical in nature.

Training gives one physical skills that may be at your disposal, but I don't feel the physical training allows anyone to have an idea of how you'll react [ meaning you could freeze up, faint, get tunneled on the weapon, etc ] I've mentioned elsewhere in other posts, that I do not feel you can mentally prepare an individual for battle [ make them a "warrior" spirit through physical skills training ].

There are instructors who sell this warrior mindset training and philosophy in weekend classes, which people buy into in a big way. Two days of training does not make you a warrior, you could think you are a warrior forever after such a weekend of training and then wet your pants when it actually happens.

I prefer not to pretend to mould warriors in mindset and thereby take poeples money in some false pretense and pumping their egos for the mighty dollar. I give people physical skills that become a basis in allowing them to have a greater chance of surviving using those physical skills IF they don't hesitate, freeze up, wet themselves, or whatever the first time they come face to face with their own mortality in the real world. But I degress and get off topic of the OP's question here.

I mean, YOU believe you know how you will react, no?

In part, that would be true. I worked the streets for 28 years and have run into a variety of situations in those years that had to be dealt with. I say "In part" as there certainly are many situations I have not experienced first hand, and I don't know how I'll react mentally in those that remain to be seen down the road. I'm proabably as mentally prepared as some, based on past experiences over those 28 years. I also believe the more you've been exposed to violence, the better you understand the psychology and your own possible reactions vs the person who has not experienced violence before.

In short: You can have the physical skills, and still not be mentally preapred to use them if and when the opportunity presents itself to use them.

aren't the chances very high they will always be different?

Absolutely, hence the response above.

Markbo------the incident you related with the woman and the Python, good example of distraction, and a subtle distraction at that by throwing the keys on the counter. You made a move to get the muzzle off your person as soon as physically possible and stayed alive. Your actions are exactly what I've been suggesting can be used to control your own environ and not rely on someone elses good nature to not pull the trigger.

Stay safe out there.

Brownie
 
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Great stuff.... I am not a warrior at heart. I have no military or LEO training and consider myself a non violent person - meaning I don't go looking for any fights.

I have always been able to rely on my size, voice and demeanor to either intimidate or calm down someone, i.e. de-escalate the very few instances in which I thought somebody was seriously gonna 'whip my ass', and not the usual just talking trash.

But I agree 100%... nobody knows for sure until they are there. I know that all my limited CCW training has been about ME with a gun... not being threatened with a gun or knife or multiple BG's.

Maybe I need to look into some hand to hand training before I get too old and fat to train. :D

Many thanks for all the clarification
Mark
 
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I'm not suggesting what you do, but if the guy is out of arms reach, you might want to throw your wallet and then run like hell. Within arms reach, making a go of it is all on you. Again, you might want to offer up your wallet, but drop it instead of handing it to him. Then either run or make a move. The falling wallet is a distraction. He may even bend down to pick it up, bringing his head down to face-smashing kick levels.

But remember that any time you are 'outside' of the gun (basically you're not behind it, the barrel with any amount of movement can point at you) you are in severe danger.

Some of the youtube clips and stuff are ok, and they're especially ok for Krav Maga masters. But for the average person, step one and two need to happen at the same time - get out of the line of fire, and get control. You can do this many ways, and it depends on how your bodies are positioned. Take control of the gun, preferably, or the wrist, if its the only thing you can grab. Never let go.

Now, overload your attacker. You've got a hand on the gun, pull on it, twist, try to break his trigger finger by wrenching the gun around - but while doing this, stomp his feet, kick his shins, knee his junk, anything. Wrestling with someone is easy. Wrestling while getting your toes smashed and your shin bone kicked in is much harder.

One simple move is to grab the gun, step into the attacker, so that your shoulder is against his chest, rotate hard while wrenching on the gun and stomping at his foot. While this is undesirable in that you expose your back to the attacker, you have far more leverage on the gun and once the gun is in your hands, he will probably leave. More spry guys with some martial arts may try the same thing, but as you come in, kick the front of the knee cap and keep pushing until it's broken. He won't hold onto anything other than his knee after that.

These are good to know in case you're in a situation where you can't step outside your opponent. Stepping inside is also good in that an accidental discharge has almost no chance of hitting you, because you're in behind the weapon.

I hope no one here ever faces that, but if it happens, God speed and good luck.

My background for this time of thing is traditional martial Tae Kwon Do and MMA.
 
As noted, there's a complicated formula for survival at the point a gun is in your face. I'd love to say that I believe you should always fight, always shoot, alway talk, always comply... But it isn't so.

Some will comply and be none the worse for it.
Some will be worse for it.

Some will fight H2H successfully.
Some will lose more than the fight.

Some will try talking their way out.
Some will talk to by time to think or to find an opening.
Some will have assailants who realize that and suffer the consequences.

Some will shoot.
Some will try.

Some have no business trying beyond talking and compliance.

And on and on...

---

"Has anyone here actually yet faced a pistol (firearm)?"

Yes. Once. I went H2H with a satisfactory result.
 
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