Which 308 Semi Rifle?

[Panzerschwein]

"--and severely damaged HK brass"
Like bent up, or like extractor damaged, or like flute-scarred? You should see my STGW57 brass, which gets a second shoulder fire-formed into it in addition to all the roller-lock torture --the Swiss are really hard on their excellent brass, for some reason

175 paces, that's like 150rds. You're talking a <.6MOA group with a cold-going-on-hot rifle with iron sights, from an improvised rest (if not essentially off-hand) for eight consecutive shots. Big fish really do get caught sometimes.

"If I had known one day I would have to prove myself on the fookin' internet, I would have kept the targets."
Sheesh, don't take everything so seriously. If you do, it should be in competition since you'd be setting records.

"Rube Goldberg? It's a handle w/ pin and spring, attached to a tube that pushes on the bolt carrier and can be locked open during a reload. No less nor hardly more complicated than an AR-15 charging handle, and absolutely not prone to any malfunctions due to the design of the cocking assembly."
Exactly; that's quite a lot more complicated than basically all cocking handle designs (which are almost all either zero-moving part extensions of the bolt carrier, or a single piece handle secured with a ball-détente.) Yes, the AR15 latched handles give the HK a run for its money. Even the Madsen LMG has a simpler cocking crank-handle (single pivoting part driven forward by the barrel extension against the recoil spring). The HK has the two-phase cammed bolt extraction thing, which is why the fanciness is needed (because of needless bolt complexity). I get that as a package, it works very well as intended, but many of the design decisions HK took are neither simple nor intuitive (the STGW, believe it or not, is actually much simpler as far as its bolt lockup arrangement, but then they went crazy with the trigger group and ejector design, and overall build quality)

"The G3 is a hard working, no nonsense battle rifle. It's a rough gun sometimes, hell to load the thing you've literally got to smack it! Very good guns."
Precisely why I think it makes for a better LMG than a rifle . Also, that Emile gif posted earlier makes me want parts kits even more, now (maybe someday...)

TCB

Well I'd love it if someone made a proper FAL for less than TWICE what it cost me to get my PTR-91.

That's quite an advantage unto itself! Unless going with a parts kit gun, something like a DSA FAL starts at what, $1600? Maybe not a big deal to some, but for use "budget minded people" it's a big deal! There is the DSA Voyager, but it's a compromise and doesn't come with certain features like a way to mount the classic FAL carry handle among others.

These things keep me away from the FAL platform, but someday when I have more money I might spring for one...

 

[M1key]

Saiga or Vepr? Should be able to find one well under one large. Keep watching at shows. I'll bet more will come to the market...

M

 

[boricua9mm]

I went through the M1A love affair and finally realized that it was just too moody. You can toss lots of money at them to make them more consistent and more accurate, but by the time you are done you've dropped $3k into the rifle whose results still confuse you, is not to be field stripped regularly, and it now weighs as much as a benchrest gun. Nice rifle with an interesting history that's dripping with emotion, but No Thanks.

For accuracy's sake, give me a Mil-proven AR10 type like the MWS, SR25 or MR762. For a close range heavy hitter, I prefer the FAL. I am a huge fan of the HK roller locked system, but the FAL has better ergonomics and it's a lot easier/faster to clean. Also, the 91s tend to be tougher on the shoulder unless you have the perfect voodoo blend of headspace, locking piece and buffer weight.

Part of me says that a SCAR17 with two optics can cover both roles extremely well, but I went in another direction.

 

[Girodin]

Well I'd love it if someone made a proper FAL for less than TWICE what it cost me to get my PTR-91

What did you pay for your PTR? How much did you put into it adding a the steel lower, green pistol grip, paddle mag release (and x2 if you ended up replacing it as was contemplated in you other thread)?

Typical street price on the lowest end PTR, the GI is about $850. They can be found on sale for less from time to time. If you pay someone to do the paddle release you are likely already over $1k. If you buy a clipped and pinned lower you are already near $1K. Many people have a trigger job done, because lets be honest, the PTR has a pretty bad trigger.

something like a DSA FAL starts at what, $1600? Maybe not a big deal to some, but for use "budget minded people" it's a big deal! There is the DSA Voyager, but it's a compromise and doesn't come with certain features like a way to mount the classic FAL carry handle among others.

You seem to acknowledge that your own statement is not correct. DSA FALs start at about $1k. Complaining about the Voyager series lack of a carry handle while glossing over the PTR's lack of paddle release seems like a pretty serious case of straining at nats and while swallowing camels. I removing magazines WAY more often on my PTR than I have ever carried any rifle by a carry handle. The lack of paddle release is IMHO a much more significant design depature and detraction than not have a carrying handle cut on the barrel. For fun go to a site like M4carbine and look at the FAL picture thread. See how many people are bothering to run a carry handle anyways. Then go to HK pro and ask about must do modifications to a PTR 91. My guess is you will be told to do a paddle release, after all that is how the gun was meant to be and be used.

I thought you would go after the receiver on the voyager, perhaps the fact that you didn't is a tacit acknowledgement of the fact that it seems to be a non issue.

Comparing price wise PTRs lowest end offering with the upper end of DSA FALs seems disingenuous. There are $1600 PTR 91 models as well. Interestingly enough even those omit the paddle release. It seems even more disingenuous to also completely ignore what it is going to cost for minimal upgrades.

I see that despite having posted back to this thread multiple times now that you have never answered my inquiry as to what other semi auto 308 rifles you A) own or B) have significant experience with. Should that be interpreted to mean that your PTR that is dropping mags on the ground is your only 308 semi auto and you don't actually have a base of knowledge to compare it with the FAL, various 308 AK options, various AR 10 options, various M1a options, the SCAR, etc? I'm not trying to be a jerk, however, I think it is a disservice to people making inquiries here when someone who doesn't have experience with the relevant "competition" declares that something is clearly the best.

On a related note did the OP ever bother to state what the gun was going to be used for. My intended use would dramatically alter what gun I think might be "best."

 

[Panzerschwein]

What did you pay for your PTR? How much did you put into it adding a the steel lower, green pistol grip, paddle mag release (and x2 if you ended up replacing it as was contemplated in you other thread)?

Typical street price on the lowest end PTR, the GI is about $850. They can be found on sale for less from time to time. If you pay someone to do the paddle release you are likely already over $1k. If you buy a clipped and pinned lower you are already near $1K. Many people have a trigger job done, because lets be honest, the PTR has a pretty bad trigger.



You seem to acknowledge that your own statement is not correct. DSA FALs start at about $1k. Complaining about the Voyager series lack of a carry handle while glossing over the PTR's lack of paddle release seems like a pretty serious case of straining at nats and while swallowing camels. I removing magazines WAY more often on my PTR than I have ever carried any rifle by a carry handle. The lack of paddle release is IMHO a much more significant design depature and detraction than not have a carrying handle cut on the barrel. For fun go to a site like M4carbine and look at the FAL picture thread. See how many people are bothering to run a carry handle anyways. Then go to HK pro and ask about must do modifications to a PTR 91. My guess is you will be told to do a paddle release, after all that is how the gun was meant to be and be used.

I thought you would go after the receiver on the voyager, perhaps the fact that you didn't is a tacit acknowledgement of the fact that it seems to be a non issue.

Comparing price wise PTRs lowest end offering with the upper end of DSA FALs seems disingenuous. There are $1600 PTR 91 models as well. Interestingly enough even those omit the paddle release. It seems even more disingenuous to also completely ignore what it is going to cost for minimal upgrades.

I see that despite having posted back to this thread multiple times now that you have never answered my inquiry as to what other semi auto 308 rifles you A) own or B) have significant experience with. Should that be interpreted to mean that your PTR that is dropping mags on the ground is your only 308 semi auto and you don't actually have a base of knowledge to compare it with the FAL, various 308 AK options, various AR 10 options, various M1a options, the SCAR, etc? I'm not trying to be a jerk, however, I think it is a disservice to people making inquiries here when someone who doesn't have experience with the relevant "competition" declares that something is clearly the best.

On a related note did the OP ever bother to state what the gun was going to be used for. My intended use would dramatically alter what gun I think might be "best."

You do have a point, but one good note about the PTR series is that it's really easy to build them up just how you want over time. I bought my PTR-91 GI knowing that it wouldn't kill my bank account, and over the weeks I've been able to kit it out to be essentially a milspec HK G3A3 clone.

I don't have much experience with the other platforms, you are correct. I did not mean to sound facetious. While it is true that my PTR is dropping magazines like a baby spitting out food it doesn't like, I intend to fix that.

But to be honest, after all the mods and work I've had done to the rifle, it's got to be at least $14-$1500 bucks by now... BUT, it's set up JUST how I want it... save the automatic magazine ejection feature LOL!

 

[Girodin]

Saiga or Vepr? Should be able to find one well under one large.

One thing to look at with each of these is how much more money are you going to need to put into it in making it 922r compliant and/or converting it to a more useful configuration. You can take a few to several hundred dollars on pretty quick depending on what you want/need to do. In my experience these guns are much less turnkey than some of the other options. Also unfortunately the days of them being great bargains seem to have passed. I think I paid $450 for the first S308 I bought. Even then, doing a PG conversion, threading the barrel, getting a (quality) means to mount an optic, etc, put it around the $800-900 range.

With both of these guns the other issue is magazines. First is the lack of any real proven military grade magazines. A lot of what is out there for these is not on par with what is available for some of the other guns discussed in this thread. The better magazines tend to be a bit spendy. A bit over $40 the last I checked.

By the time you buy a decent supply of magazine and get the gun set up how you want these can cost more than some other options.

 

[M1key]

My assumption would be that they are already compliant.

There are even a few guys on the Saiga forum that are willing to sell theirs.

Making any of them compliant is a easy. Just don't send them to Bill Springfield. LOL. Hail, I might do it for nothing if you buy the parts.

CSSPECS makes steel mags for both. I even beta-tested some early prototypes. They aren't cheap, but they are solid, look and work great. He will give a a volume price break if a forum member. Makes both rifles a viable combat weapon, IMO and others. Besides, CS is a good guy, offers sales from time to time, and he is an Amerkin.

Heck original new or exc cond. metric FAL mags are in the range of 30-40 bucks if you can find them. Forget the DSA crappy ones.

How much is one's life worth? Spend the money or you may die early. Well, you may die early anyway.


M

 

[Girodin]

My assumption would be that they are already compliant.

Depends on how you buy them and what you are going to do with them. If you leave them as is and only use 10 round mags then that is true. If you add "evil features" or stick a mag that holds more than 11 rounds in it.

Here is a little light reading on sporting purpose and ow various guns have been categorized they way they are. https://www.atf.gov/file/57521/download

CSSPECS makes steel mags for both. I even beta-tested some early prototypes. They aren't cheap, but they are solid, look and work great. He will give a a volume price break if a forum member. Makes both rifles a viable combat weapon, IMO and others. Besides, CS is a good guy, offers sales from time to time, and he is an Amerkin

That's what I have for mine. I've never had an issue with mine (but honestly I haven't pushed either gun or used them all that much) and I bought it bulk. They aren't combat proven mags though. The maybe would be given the chance, but fact is they aren't. Also its always a bit disconcerting when there is one source for something. That is true more broadly of the Russian 308 guns. What if you need parts that aren't compatible with other AKs? AKs are pretty durable and all but still. That said the are very expensive mags compared to G3 mags for sure (you can buy 100 G3 mags for less than the price of 4 Csspec mags!) but even 308 Pmags.

I haven't used DSA FAL mags so I cannot comment on them.

How much is one's life worth? Spend the money or you may die early. Well, you may die early anyway.

Price ain't the only consideration.

That of course assumes the gun is being used as a defensive or duty weapon. Little chance of dying from a magazine failure on a one way range or when just showing of your gun to friends. I don't think we ever heard what the OP wanted to use the gun for.

If I was going for serious defensive/duty weapon and cost be damned because what is one's life worth, I don't know that I'd go with either of my Russian 308s and probably not any of the old war horse cold war era battle rifles. It would with all likelihood be a high end 308 AR. Not a knock on any of those rifles but things evolve.

 

[barnbwt]

"I don't think we ever heard what the OP wanted to use the gun for."

I think this stopped being the OP's thread months ago, lol

TCB

 

[justice06rr]

Just to update the thread since its almost a year:

I decided to forego the 308 and just stick with 7.62x39 and 5.56 rifles (AK and AR). I do have 2 Mosin carbines (7.62x54), but they are not exactly known for accuracy although they pack quite a punch and ammo is cheap.

 

[Sarge]

Well, I'm seeing this rather late, but I'll add a vote for the FN/FAL.
I have AR 15s, M1As, M14s and would leave them all laying in the driveway for those w/o a rifle if the SHTF and I had to run for the hills!
My FN/FAL will do anything the others will do and I like shooting it a lot better! Besides, it has a run fast switch.
Sarge

 

[Robert]

The OP has decided to not go the 308 route at this time so lets let this one go.