Which 308 Semi Rifle?

[Welding Rod]

I only have owned the M1A and MP10. I couldn't be happier with a good M14 clone (though I would avoid SAI) provided the goal was to shoot iron sights.

 

[Lord Teapot]

FNAR

heavy, but durable and accurate.

 

[25-5]

Other: M1A

 

[Panzerschwein]

Get an H&K G3 pattern rifle, and thank me later. Here is mine:



More reliable than anything else mentioned. Rugged to an extreme. Excellent accuracy and stopping power, useful for CQB on out to 500 meters or more. Parts and magazines are cheap and plentiful. Will digest any ammo you care to put through it, including steel cased or milsurp. These rifles are unlike anything else you've shot, but once you get used to them, nothing else compares IMHO.

 

[agtman]

* * * I couldn't be happier with a good M14 clone (though I would avoid SAI) provided the goal was to shoot iron sights.

Having both a mid-80s Super Match and an early '90s standard M1A in a synthetic mil stock, both SAI by the way, I agree with your comment about shooting with iron sights. They're not just fun to shoot like that, but these rifles are typically more accurate than the shooter behind them. You'll be as good as your experience and marksmanship skills allow.

The problem I have is in trying to shoot M1As with scpoes mounted over the receiver. Yeah, guys do it, but I've found them awkward and some of the mounts out there are junk. The solution of running some type of forward-mounted optic on a rail ("scout scope" or RDS) is probably the best one for the M1A platform.

Otherwise, for setting up optics, the AR-10 platform is both more compatible and feels less awkward during trigger time ... IMO, anyway.

 

[25-5]

I have the SAI NM M1A and I love the rifle and it's iron sights. I do like to slap a scope on it occasionally, and use a Basset low mount and Bradley cheek rest. Works really well.

 

[Ironicaintit]

My best friend bought a sig 716 patrol, and is as happy as a pig in slop with it.
I think its okay.

I voted other:
Big fan of HK91s here. A tad on the heavy side but whatever. If that were a major concern, we'd be asked about our favorite 5.56 platform! It has decent balance, mags are cheap and plentiful, and they run! I love the iron sights.
Some guys do not care for the ergonomics, but I have yet to complain about it. Im a tall guy with german lineage and so mine fits me pretty well. Its genetic.

My 2nd is the FAL.
3rd is the AK
4th is the AR

 

[Nature Boy]

Another vote for the M1A. I have a SAI Standard model, and despite other's comments on quality, I've run 4-5k rounds through it without a SINGLE MALFUNCTION. Not one. I've looked hard trying to find something wrong with it but haven't.

Like 25-5 above, I run mine with a Basset scope base and Bradley cheek riser. With my hand loads it shoots and 1" - 5 shot groups or better (I've posted quite a few pictures of targets as proof).

I did have the trigger group worked. That's probably it's one weak link.

 

[krupparms]

My pick is the FAL , .308 NATO. My reasons are it can be found at reasonable prices as can the mag.s. Also it was/is in use with the military personnel of Mexico & Canada. It is also seen use with the US military. And it is a popular rifle with civilians here in the US. It is easy to reload rounds for or use different ammo. If I had the money I would get a M1A or possibly the H&K G3. Those are very nice rifles & would be great choices also.I also like the AR10 & AK/ SVD in .308 NATO. Those are great choices also! A man would do well with any of those rifles. But on my budget I chose the D.S.A. FAL. with standard stock. I may put a para modle stock on it for portability.

 

[nightshift]

Shuff's Parkerizing

If your taste runs toward the M1 Garand & M14 family, you should check out Shuff's Parkerizing. Tim Shufflin performs conversions on M1 Garands, among other gunsmithing services. The man is a true craftsman, and that is a difficult thing to find, these days. He will take a full size Garand and and convert it to .308 with 16.25" barrel, and, if you like, also convert it to take an M14 box magazine. That's what I have owned for some years now. It is a true joy to use. As much as I loved my original Garand, I love Shuff's conversion even more. I'm presently saving up to get a Mini-G from him. This will be a 16.25" Garand without the box mag conversion, and I think I'll keep it in 30.06. If you like wood and steel, these are beautiful firearms. When you hold one, you know you got a serious piece of equipment. Check out his website. My words do not do his work justice. As if that isn't enough, Mr. Shufflin is a good man, a pleasure to do business with.

 

[Dean1818]

I always wanted an AR10. Long story short, I had to get a detachable box fed 308 before a certain date and the only thing available without getting price gouged was a DSA FAL. At 1st I didn't like it, but the more I shot it the more I liked it. That little FAL grew on me and it's now on the top of my list of toys I take to the range.

The AR10's I'm sure are wonderful rifles too, but I'm a FAL fan now.

What accuracy levels do you get with that FAL?

 

[Girodin]

These rifles are unlike anything else you've shot, but once you get used to them, nothing else compares IMHO.

What other semi auto 308 rifles do you own or have significant experience with?

I'm not trying to be confrontational. Its just that when you say nothing else compares I want to be able to evaluate what rifles you have actually been able to compare it to. Thanks.

 

[barnbwt]

+1 on that. I was being quite serious when I said the CETME series were unstoppable but with very few other redeeming qualities (even accuracy isn't nearly as awesome as I see bragged, in my estimation; no better than any other free floated design, although it was ahead of its time on that front as well as its modularity). Impossible safety and mag release on most models, not the greatest sights on others with limited optics options, consistently lame trigger, and a cocking setup that is positively Rube Goldberg (how many other designs receive praise for incorporating, what, half a dozen moving parts into the cocking handle?) and whose operation is quite behind the times (no automatic bolt hold open, and requires manipulation to release, and cannot be released carefully with reliable results). I always thought it a much more compelling LMG concept (HK21 and CETME Amile) than a service rifle.

TCB

 

[Nature Boy]

The Amile, this guy likes it!

 

[M1key]

What accuracy levels do you get with that FAL?

Don't know about handloader, for 5 shots, scoped, I get ~1 MOA with match and 2.5 or better with ball.

YMMV

M

 

[Dean1818]

Get an H&K G3 pattern rifle, and thank me later. Here is mine:



More reliable than anything else mentioned. Rugged to an extreme. Excellent accuracy and stopping power, useful for CQB on out to 500 meters or more. Parts and magazines are cheap and plentiful. Will digest any ammo you care to put through it, including steel cased or milsurp. These rifles are unlike anything else you've shot, but once you get used to them, nothing else compares IMHO.

I want to like the G3 (PTR91)

But........

1) Tough on brass, unless you buy buffer - Extra Cash
2) Heavy (9.5lbs) before scopes
3) Trigger is nasty - Extra cash for trigger job
4) Mag release without work done is rough - Extra cash
5) The cocking handle isnt like any other rifle that I own.....

Looks cool, but decided it wasnt for me

I put my coin into my AR15 rig, (6.8)

The 308 would be a plinker


I am actually breaking my own rule of American made guns and looking at the Zastava 308 m77

 

[barnbwt]

"Don't know about handloader, for 5 shots, scoped, I get ~1 MOA with match and 2.5 or better with ball."

Not saying I don't believe you, but I would really like to see the evidence as the claim is quite extraordinary. The FNAR can barely do that typically, and has a lot more going for it accuracy-wise than any FAL (namely the gas tube setup which induces a ton of harmonics under recoil, and of course the barrel)

I'm sure the FAL concept could be similarly accurized as the BAR hunting rifle was to make for a very precise platform, but that's not what was fielded. Did you do a bunch of accuracy mods to your rifle to get it that accurate?

TCB

 

[Robert]

2.5 MOA is pretty standard for a FAL. My bulk hand loads will hold 2.5 MOA or better all day long. 1 MOA is not unheard of with proper match ammo, though I would not consider it the norm.

 

[M1key]

"Don't know about handloader, for 5 shots, scoped, I get ~1 MOA with match and 2.5 or better with ball."

Not saying I don't believe you, but I would really like to see the evidence as the claim is quite extraordinary.

TCB

Oh I think you are saying you don't believe me all right. Do a search. I've posted numerous targets.

My experience over the last 35 years and 6 FALs: G1, 50.0, SAR48, DSA (2), even a lowly Century Hesse.

Bone stock DSA, Leupold 4x, 100 yards, 168 match bullet

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=524882

Here is my other DSA (bone stock) with SARCO scope and ADI ball--first shot on a cold bore (lower right) not posted yet

 

[M1key]

CAI Hesse Aussie ball, 100 yds, Leupold 4x, 5 shots

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=708529 post 5

 

[M1key]

No proof but many years ago, late 70s, I did shoot my new HK91 with iron sights off the roof of my car into a target 175 paces away, 8 shots, 7/8 inch, dead center X-ring and witnessed by a friend. Load if I recall was 48gr Win 748, 150 Hornady FMJ or SP--I can't recall exactly--and severely damaged HK brass. That was long ago, far away. I now wear corrective lenses, my tummy wants to visit my knees, the HK is long gone. If I had known one day I would have to prove myself on the fookin' internet, I would have kept the targets. LOL

Stay safe out there

M

 

[barnbwt]

You sure your meter-stick is calibrated, M1key? (I kid, I kid... )

"1 MOA is not unheard of with proper match ammo, though I would not consider it the norm."
Precisely. Hardly the norm, for any milsurp autoloader, shooting milsurp ball. Even moreso using a 4MOA red dot optic, you must be a very practiced shooter to get such consistent results from a large reticle. It's possible for the barrel harmonics and lock-up variance intrinsic to the platform to line up just right for your particular case & load (since those factors are quite repeatable most of the time), but the vast, vast majority of cases are nowhere near that accurate (speaking in terms of standard deviation, not measured spread).

You're lucky you got that sixth-standard-deviation rifle, but "the FAL" in general does not have any expectation of accuracy like that. It'd be notorious as a sniping weapon if it were (the PSG-1 only averages ~1MOA at best in practice, I've been told by owners, though I'll never be able to verify this myself of course). The giant tuning fork hanging off the gas block simply isn't conducive to accuracy most of the time. It's worth mentioning that simply for the sake of a person looking to buy one. I say the same thing about roller-lock guns, which for some reason enjoy this myth of being abnormally accurate for autoloaders (when in reality it's probably more due to HK's quality barrels staying in decent shape, longer, as well as the sort-of free floated barrel, than anything intrinsic to the action). Again, if a person is interested in groups, they should look into a rifle specifically designed & built to precise operation, as opposed to a military-pattern battle rifle, as the best use of their time and money.

Thanks for the follow-up target post, since the old thread won't show pictures in archive form . You've inspired me to look into a scope mount of some sort for my FN49, just to see if I happened to get lucky, as well.

TCB

 

[Panzerschwein]

+1 on that. I was being quite serious when I said the CETME series were unstoppable but with very few other redeeming qualities (even accuracy isn't nearly as awesome as I see bragged, in my estimation; no better than any other free floated design, although it was ahead of its time on that front as well as its modularity). Impossible safety and mag release on most models, not the greatest sights on others with limited optics options, consistently lame trigger, and a cocking setup that is positively Rube Goldberg (how many other designs receive praise for incorporating, what, half a dozen moving parts into the cocking handle?) and whose operation is quite behind the times (no automatic bolt hold open, and requires manipulation to release, and cannot be released carefully with reliable results). I always thought it a much more compelling LMG concept (HK21 and CETME Amile) than a service rifle.

TCB

Rube Goldberg? It's a handle w/ pin and spring, attached to a tube that pushes on the bolt carrier and can be locked open during a reload. No less nor hardly more complicated than an AR-15 charging handle, and absolutely not prone to any malfunctions due to the design of the cocking assembly.

I'll admit, a bolt hold open would be nice, but is not necessary. When you fire the last round, you simply pull the charging handle and lock the bolt open, swap mags and karate chop the handle to release it and send the bolt forward. In fact, you HAVE to do it like this in order to make sure the bolt flies forward with all it's strength, it might not lock up all the way if you ride the charging handle home. But, the same thing can happen on an AR-15 or AK-47... you don't ever want to "carefully" release the charging handle on any military service rifle. You want the freaking bolt to fly forward to make sure it picks up a round and goes into battery.

The G3 is a hard working, no nonsense battle rifle. It's a rough gun sometimes, hell to load the thing you've literally got to smack it! Very good guns.

 

[M1key]

Well Barn, I admit the FALs won't do that good "all day long" LOL but will until the barrel heats. The CHALLENGE if I recall on the FAL forum was: 10 shots, irons or optics, any ammo, 100 yards, 2 inches or less. Don't remember time limits. I did it the first time I tried so I was buzzed...

BTW, I thought the HK handled like a giant sausage. LOL

M

 

[barnbwt]

"--and severely damaged HK brass"
Like bent up, or like extractor damaged, or like flute-scarred? You should see my STGW57 brass, which gets a second shoulder fire-formed into it in addition to all the roller-lock torture --the Swiss are really hard on their excellent brass, for some reason

175 paces, that's like 150rds. You're talking a <.6MOA group with a cold-going-on-hot rifle with iron sights, from an improvised rest (if not essentially off-hand) for eight consecutive shots. Big fish really do get caught sometimes.

"If I had known one day I would have to prove myself on the fookin' internet, I would have kept the targets."
Sheesh, don't take everything so seriously. If you do, it should be in competition since you'd be setting records.

"Rube Goldberg? It's a handle w/ pin and spring, attached to a tube that pushes on the bolt carrier and can be locked open during a reload. No less nor hardly more complicated than an AR-15 charging handle, and absolutely not prone to any malfunctions due to the design of the cocking assembly."
Exactly; that's quite a lot more complicated than basically all cocking handle designs (which are almost all either zero-moving part extensions of the bolt carrier, or a single piece handle secured with a ball-détente.) Yes, the AR15 latched handles give the HK a run for its money. Even the Madsen LMG has a simpler cocking crank-handle (single pivoting part driven forward by the barrel extension against the recoil spring). The HK has the two-phase cammed bolt extraction thing, which is why the fanciness is needed (because of needless bolt complexity). I get that as a package, it works very well as intended, but many of the design decisions HK took are neither simple nor intuitive (the STGW, believe it or not, is actually much simpler as far as its bolt lockup arrangement, but then they went crazy with the trigger group and ejector design, and overall build quality)

"The G3 is a hard working, no nonsense battle rifle. It's a rough gun sometimes, hell to load the thing you've literally got to smack it! Very good guns."
Precisely why I think it makes for a better LMG than a rifle . Also, that Emile gif posted earlier makes me want parts kits even more, now (maybe someday...)

TCB