Which 4 Rules?

[ExAgoradzo]

I have taught my boys these rules with #s 3 & 4 reversed. I also teach them:
Don't talk about guns to someone unless I say it is ok. (OK, I live in CA!!!)
Also, Keep your gun cleaned, oiled, and safe. I've had some flack on the 'oiled' part, but using some brain power instead of going crazy I think 'oiled' is a good idea.

We say all 6 rules every time we handle guns no matter what we're doing.

 

[YankeeFlyr]

Yeah, I just got out of the basement, having gone through my neighbor's Mossberg Maverick pump shotgun. It had some surface rust on the barrel.

I cleaned the weapon out, oiled it a little and reassembled it.

A few months ago I did the same with his Norinco and his Polytech AKs; some rust here and there. I don't think they'd been stripped since the 90's. I did a detail strip of both of them, oiled and greased as appropriate and gave them back.

I just don't get the lack of attention that some people have with care of metal surfaces...and this guy does know how to use them, and keeps them for home defense.

I've never owned a firearm with corrosion of any type! I don't take rust very well...

 

[claiborne]

Rule # 1

Rule # 1 ALL guns are always LOADED. :banghead:

This "Rule" is the dumbest thing ever. It is posted at alll the ranges I use right next to the 'No Alcohol" rule. Common sense does not seem to come in play anymore.
This is the only safe firearm hadling rule that I completely disagree with and makes no sense to me.
ALL guns are not always loaded. If they were we would never be able to do anything but shoot them.
The proper way to use this rule as taught to me by my Grandfather, Father, an NRA Hunter's Education class way back in 1980 and the US Navy 1988-1992 was:
1. Treat all firearms as if they are loaded until you prove beyond doubt that they are not loaded.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Rule # 1 ALL guns are always LOADED.

This "Rule" is the dumbest thing ever....

I think I prefer Jeff Cooper to your grandfather, et al.

Let's see what Jeff Cooper had to say.

• Jeff Cooper's Commentaries, Vol. 6 (1998), No. 2, pg. 8.
  

  ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED
  The only exception to this occurs when one has a weapon in his hands and he has personally unloaded it for checking. As soon as he puts it down, Rule 1 applies again.

• Jeff Cooper's Commentaries, vol.9 (2001), No. 6, pg. 29:
  

  ...We think that "treat all guns as if they were loaded" implies with the "as if" qualification a dangerous choice of assumptions...

• Jeff Cooper's Commentaries, vol.11 (2003), No. 13, pg. 64:
  

  ...A major point of issue is Rule 1, "All guns are always loaded." There are people who insist that we cannot use this because it is not precisely true. Some guns are sometimes unloaded. These folks maintain that the rule should read that one should always treat all guns as if they were loaded. The trouble here is the "as if," which leads to the notion that the instrument at hand may actually not be loaded....

Then as As John Schaefer, another student of Col. Cooper, puts it,

All firearms are loaded. - There are no exceptions. Don't pretend that this is true. Know that it is and handle all firearms accordingly. Do not believe it when someone says: "It isn't loaded."

And at that same link, Mr Schaefer quotes John Farnam in part as follows:

...The correct philosophical approach to serious firearms training is the "the condition doesn't matter" method. This was first articulated by Uncle Jeff in his four rules, but all four can all be rolled together in the universal admonition "DON'T DO STUPID THINGS WITH GUNS!" The "hot range" concept logically flows from this philosophical conclusion. Now, we handle all guns correctly, all the time. We don't have to "pretend" they're loaded. They ARE loaded, continuously, and all students need to become accustomed to it....

Those of us who have trained with the Four Rules, and teach with them, understand them as safe handling rules. We know and teach their proper application and context. So --

• If you hand me a gun, don't bother telling me it's not loaded. Because Rule One applies, I won't believe you and will personally verify/clear the gun.
  
  
• If I criticize you for pointing a gun at me, my spouse, my cat, or anyone/anything else I value, don't bother trying to excuse yourself by telling me that it's not loaded.
  
  
• If your gun fires when you didn't intend it to, don't bother trying to explain yourself by saying anything like, "I didn't think it was loaded." You should have understood that under Rule One since it is a gun it is loaded, and you should have conducted yourself accordingly.

People complain about Rule One. They say that they know there are unloaded guns. But the The Four Rules are rules of gun handling and intended to avoid injury. So as far as I'm concerned, when I pick up a gun, there is no such thing as an unloaded gun, and I conduct myself accordingly.

So what do you do if you have a gun in your hand and you don't want it to be loaded? Well you clear it, of course. So that's what you would do if, for example, you wanted to dissemble if for cleaning or enclose/lock it in a case for legal transportation if the law requires that the gun be unloaded. But while the gun is in your hand you still follow Rules Two, Three and Four. And if the gun is out of your control, Rule One again applies -- so you conduct yourself accordingly and personally verify/clear it if you don't want it to be loaded. (And of course anyone one who uses a gun for practical applications, such as hunting or self defense, in any case needs to be able to handle a loaded gun properly.)

 

[Skribs]

Frank, I actually prefer the bit longer:

The firearm is always loaded, unless you want it loaded.

Basically, if you want it unloaded (fondling, cleaning, etc), treat it as if loaded until you are sure. If you want it loaded (say, going on your belt for a day's carry), assume it is unloaded until you verify there is a round in the chamber. Don't want to hear a click because that gun that is "always loaded" happened to be empty when you drew on an assailant.

 

[357autoloader]

My carry/go to guns are always loaded. I check them to make darn sure they are loaded.

 

[akodo]

- Never hand someone else a loaded weapon.

What? What kind of rule is that? Heck, that's the opposite of rule #1.

There are many times I have handed people loaded guns. Just off the top of my head last time I was out shooting with some novice shooters, we had a single spot where you'd shoot from. Novice shooter was there, I was standing by with a loaded rifle cradled in my arms ( Tube fed 22, muzzle pointed safely away, finger off trigger, etc). Novice was having trouble. My brother walks up, no gun in hand. I hand him my loaded rifle to go assist novice. I'd expect him to handle any gun just handed to him as loaded, and I'd expect in the reverse for the same to apply.

Or when taking a person to an indoor shooting pistol range, I'll run the target down, load a single 22 in a revolver and set it down. Then bring up the new shooter, go over things, then have them pick up the loaded gun and take a shot. I don't want the mechanics of 'how to put the ammo in' to be a concern when they should be concentrating on being safe, muzzle, sight alignment, etc.

 

[mljdeckard]

the reason I prefer the "All guns are always loaded" version is that it's simple, and easy to remember to a bunch of noobs. When you are teaching a lot of people of varying levels of intelligence and degrees of positive enthusiasm for the whole idea, you have a limited amount of attention and memory to work with. Exceptions, asterisks, whit ifs, special situations, etc just take up rapidly depleting attention span. Keep it simple, and it sticks better to rookies. Let them learn the extended versions if they ever pick up a gun again because they actually WANT to.

 

[dmazur]

I believe I would generally agree that it is a bad idea to hand a loaded gun to another, noob or not.

The use of a table as an intermediate position is important, IMO. It allows transfer while maintaining muzzle discipline. The instruction to "keep the gun pointed downrange at all times" is simple enough, and is consistent with most range rules. And you can emphasize that, if there's a question, they need to put the gun on the table before turning around to ask it...

When I taught my wife to shoot, inserting a magazine and racking the slide were things she had to do. She was definitely not comfortable with this, but she wasn't going to develop proficiency without doing it. Patience and repetition got her though it without incident. (We're still married...)

Now she is a dedicated practitioner of the Four Rules. And, if we're cleaning or passing guns around at home, after a trip to the range, she follows the "action open, muzzle toward yourself (pistol) or toward ceiling (rifle)" protocol commonly seen in gun stores.

 

[JohnBT]

"I don't want the mechanics of 'how to put the ammo in' to be a concern when they should be concentrating on being safe"

I agree. One example of this I run into frequently is people wanting to shoot my Rohrbaugh R9. It's a stiff little bugger with a two-finger grip when it comes to chambering a round. I just feel better doing it for most people, especially the newer shooters, some women and almost all of the skinny 12- and 13-year-olds. These are range acquaintances, or they could practice on the empty gun in my living room.

I see nothing at all unsafe about me standing next to them while I chamber a round and - keeping the gun pointed at the target the whole time - hold it up so when they grab it they're ready to shoot as soon as I step back.

I dislike setting down a loaded, unholstered handgun for any reason. Just the way I was raised I suppose. The new indoor range here requires it to be done that way; I guess I won't be sharing very much.

John

 

[ns66]

to be honest i find these rules too mouthful hard to remember
for me i just simply it LFT

1. Loaded (treat as loaded)
2. Finger (finger off till ready)
3. Target (be aware of what you target)

 

[Frank Ettin]

"I don't want the mechanics of 'how to put the ammo in' to be a concern when they should be concentrating on being safe"

I agree....

I'm sorry but I have trouble with that. "Being safe" means being safe at all times when handling a gun, including when loading or unloading it.

In our Basic Handgun class, each student spends time handling a number of different revolvers and semi-automatics, including loading and unloading them with dummy ammunition and dry firing them, all under the direct supervision of an instructor. We can thus constantly reinforce safe handling and help students learn ways to manage what might be balky controls or hard-to-rack slides in a safe manner. All live fire is also done under the direct supervision of an instructor (one-on-one), and the students manage all the gun and ammunition handling themselves.

I think that's important to help teach that trigger discipline, muzzle discipline and safe gun handling generally are "all the time" things.

 

[dmazur]

For my wife, the rationale behind the safety rules "sank in" when we changed from shooting at a police range with motorized target retrieval at each shooting station to shooting at a private club which did not have that feature.

Instead, they had strict (on pain of loss of membership) range rules, which included "actions open, nobody touches guns when shooters are servicing targets."

One guy nearly lost his membership for touching his scope...other members explained that it didn't matter that his bolt was out. For folks downrange, they want to see nobody at the benches until everyone is back behind the firing line and the range is called "hot". No exceptions.

IMO, it is unfortunate that there are "target range safety rules" (NRA) and "hot range safety rules" (Gunsite et al). When it is realized that each set of rules was developed for a different set of circumstances, the puzzling "ALWAYS keep the gun unloaded until ready to shoot" is understood as obviously not directed at CCW. But, until this is realized, the plethora of rules can be confusing.

 

[mgmorden]

For my wife, the rationale behind the safety rules "sank in" when we changed from shooting at a police range with motorized target retrieval at each shooting station to shooting at a private club which did not have that feature.

Instead, they had strict (on pain of loss of membership) range rules, which included "actions open, nobody touches guns when shooters are servicing targets."

One guy nearly lost his membership for touching his scope...other members explained that it didn't matter that his bolt was out. For folks downrange, they want to see nobody at the benches until everyone is back behind the firing line and the range is called "hot". No exceptions.

The range I shoot at doesn't have any formal requirements regarding this except no shooting when people are down range, but I like to even take it a step further. If there are people downrange not only should the action be open and you not touch the gun, but I like to see people get up from the shooting bench and back away a few steps. Not that I'd "call" anyone on it as its not an official rule, but it certainly makes me more comfortable and I try to afford that courtesy to others when they're downrange too.

 

[JohnBT]

"I think that's important to help teach that trigger discipline, muzzle discipline and safe gun handling generally are "all the time" things."

I'm not training anybody, I'm letting somebody with their own guns and ammo shoot a mag or a cylinder in some of mine to see what the guns are like. I don't expect them to know the manual on a bunch of my guns or even one. It's safer to let me do it and all they do is aim and pull the trigger.

The muzzle is always pointed at the target. When I chamber a round and when the person takes it, it's pointed at the target. What's the problem? The technique has worked well since my father started doing it for me in the 1950s. Haven't seen one dropped yet.

John

 

[Frank Ettin]

I'm not training anybody,...

Sorry, I misunderstood.

 

[Hacker15E]

I guess I can never look down the bore when I clean it, since it's "always loaded" and I can never point it at anything I don't want to destroy.

 

[9mmepiphany]

That is why they are Safety Rules and not Laws

 

[dmazur]

I guess I can never look down the bore when I clean it, since it's "always loaded"...

Please refer to post #29 (which said it far more completely than my thin reference in post #9.)

Also, there have been statements made that the Four Rules were written for a hot range (and can be easily extended to concealed carry.)

IMO, they were never intended to cover all aspects of gun ownership. That belief is something that has occurred out of lack of understanding and a desire for a simple solution to a complex problem.

I believe a wonderful "extension" to the Four Rules is the protocol followed at some gun stores, where guns are handed to customer with the action open and the muzzle pointed at the salesperson. This is not covered by the Four Rules, but most would not argue that it decreases safety.

Other extensions would include the previously-mentioned protocol for crossing fences, as well as others (such as lowering/raising a rifle into a tree stand.)

Again, IMO, the Four Rules are a wonderful treatise. But there is nothing wrong with extending them to fit the circumstances.

 

[Warp]

The above discussion is not surprising. I tell people these four:

1. Guns are loaded.
2. Keep pointed in a safe direction.
3. Finger off the damn trigger! (until sites are on target/preparing to fire)
4. Know target and what lies beyond.

If there was to be one Golden Rule, it would be #2. If that one is followed, you won't hurt anybody. But that is no excuse to break another rule.

 

[Matthew Courtney]

I Am an NRA Training Counselor, meaning that I train NRA Instructors. please allor me to clarify rule # 3 of safe gun handling.

Always keep your gun unloaded until ready to use- guns kept and carried for personal protection are being used for that purpose whenever they are under the personal control of the person keeping and/or carrying them and may be loaded. When a personal protection firearm is not under the personal control of the person keeping or carrying it, they are not using it and it should be unloaded.

 

[Matthew Courtney]

When the action is disassembled, the barrel is no longer part of a firearm, it is simply a gun part and may be handled as needed for inspection, cleaning, and such.