Which combat rifle sighting system?

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SRMohawk

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GA Precision in K.C. recently delivered my first ever AR rifle (an M4 carbine). They did an absolutely incredible job on it, too. My shooting buddies are green with envy. The thing is, the specs - as with any true custom firearm - were my own. And I ordered things such that the rifle would accept multiple sighting implements simultaneously. Nonetheless, I've come to discover that not just any combination of sights/optics will fit. Specifically, this rifle was built with a Wilson Combat rear flip-up peep sight and a DPMS tri-rail, front-post sight. These work beautifully in tandem with an EOTech 556/A65 holo-sight (co-witness one another perfectly) or Leupold red-dot sight. Unfortunately, neither of the two telescopic sights I've tried (ELCAN Specter OS 3.0; Leupold CQB scope) are compatible with the iron sights. The eye relief (or lack thereof) in both scopes demands they be mounted at the very rear-end of the flat-top rail before the sight picture materializes. But this can't be done as long as that Wilson Combat flip-up sight is mounted there.

So I started making some phone calls, just for my own edification, to find out why all these top-of-line, short-range scopes - all ostensibly designed for AR, FN, Sig, and HK rifles/carbines - have so little eye relief, preventing them from being mounted simultaneously on rifles with iron sights. Of course, the answer was always the same: most of these scopes are meant to be dedicated sights, rather than a complement to other sighting implements, just like it is on high-power, bolt-rifles.

At length, I got to brooding about whether, if I could have one of two exactly identical rifles/carbines, I would choose the one with the combination of iron sights and a holo-sight or red-dot sight, or the one with just a variable power scope (for our purposes, a variable 1-4x US Optics SN-4 or an ELCAN Specter). And I couldn't come up with a definite answer for myself. So, I would hereby like to submit the question to you, gentlemen.

Which would you choose?
 
This is a hunch from your written description, pictures would help...

The Leupold CQT has something like 2" of eye relief which would not work in your case. You need to estimate the eye relief you need (have someone help with a tape measure) and then find a scope with enough eye relief. Leupold mark 4's/VX-3 scopes will have somewhere between 3.5-4.5" and some shotgun scopes will have more. Try going to SWFA and look at the specs for different scopes.

You will find many of the scopes meant for an AR will be short on eye relief because the AR has low recoil and you can get your eye up close.
 
FS10,
Last year, while waiting for this new M4 to be built and delivered, I mulled over the prospect of getting a US Optics SN-4 1-4x. And in using various AR enthusiasts around me as 'sounding boards' pursuant to making the decision, I posed the question; "Can you imagine ever finding yourself in a situation where you really need your M4, and all you've got on it is a scope, and the scope breaks?" But this one guy who really believed in US Optics scopes retorted; "Any circumstances in which a US Optics scope could be disabled, your primitive iron sights could be, too!"

I still decided the rifle should have iron sights, first and foremost, figuring I could find a fancier, more technologically advanced sighting tool to add to it additionally.
 
In combat I don't trust batteries, filaments, lenses, or other optical nonsense. I've seen situations, pics, and videos of combat in which the optic sight was completely destroyed, but the irons were dusted off and kept trucking along.
 
Please clarify eye relief needed, and photos would help. All Ziess Conquest up to 3-9x have 4in. of eye relief; I would think that would suffice.
 
I don't prefer variable scopes on my M4s.

Most times, you just can't get all the goodies on those rails. In a perfect world you could, but the magnifier is going to be right where the rear sight is. If it is a QR like the one in the picture below, there is no room for the BUIS. Even if the rail had enough space for it all, you'd likely have to drop the rear sight down to swing the mag into place. That's too much tinkering for CQB.

p041012hz03.jpg

I'll live without the magnifier in order to keep the BUIS with a red-dot or holo.
 
If you really want a scope and BUIS try looking for handgun or scout scopes, these usually have much longer eye-relief. I'm just not so sure about the practicality of all this. If you have BUIS that co-witness with a scope and the scope fails (lens breaks/shatters/whatever) you're going to have to take the scope off. Do you have quick-release rings that are repeatable enough that you can practice with both systems? You'll have to train with both systems, so you'll be taking the scope off maybe once every other range trip. When you put it back on, is it going to return to the exact same POI? Just some things to consider.
 
ACOG.

You'll be happy!

Maverick beat me to it. While the latest ACOGs are getting better with relief they still only have something like 2.5" of eye relief some more some a lot less.
 
Greetings,

+1 strongly ont he 557 with the magnifier. I use that setup on my SIG556 and it is quite good.

I tried a CQB from a guy at the club and I really did not like it. I tried also an ACOG 3x and it was very good, but it does not have the versatility of the 557+magnifier.

Thank you
 
Saw a thread somewhere where the individual mounted the rear sight in front of the scope reversed (flipped forward) such that he ended up with a "scout" type set up for the iron sights - not sure how good the sight picture was - but he said it would work for him in an emergency.
 
Aimpoint Micro T-1 with some kind of back up iron sights.
I prefer the standard FSB with a flip up rear battle sight.
 
I just don't see the point of a magnified optic on a civilian AR for "combat" type of stuff.

Aimpoint/Eotech and cowitnessed irons of whatever flavor you like.

Want a rifle to reach out and touch, build a .308 something.

Not due to any weakness of the 5.56, it's just that long distance "combat" in the 50 states is kind of hard to picture :)
 
Gentlemen,
You are all most gracious! And your comments/advice are going to prove indispensible, I'm certain. Still, I need to clarify one point. First off, let me preface it by saying that TexasRifleman's clearly rhetorical question is well received. An M4 - given the express purpose for which it was devised - really has no place for an intemediate-range, much less long range, scope. That's what all these 'knock-offs' of USMC M40 A1/A3 or U.S. Army M24 systems are for! IMHO, even a fixed, low-magnification scope is really just not appropriate for an M4, which is why I've never considered an ACOG - phenomenonal as they are in their own rite.

But the few, really well-made, variable 1-3x or 1-4x scopes out there definitely do make sense to me. I just don't know if I wanna sacrifice iron sights to have one on my M4. So Jon (Snow), I was most intrigued by what you had to offer. And to think that it's really just common sense, in the end. :eek: Observe the 'Posa & Slide Mk I' implement made for the SN-4 models at US Optics website. Oh, and I might add that I've seen these in numerous photos from the Iraq and Afghanistan affairs being used to mate several different brands of 'CQB' scopes to AR carbines. The thing is, mine is hardly the same situation . . . I had my M4 built first and foremost to have fun with and to teach my little boy to shoot (since he can't get up on the big bolt guns I have), not to fight with. I just wanna make sure it'll be 'good-to-go' in case, you know, SHTF/TEOTWAWKI! :uhoh:
 
NP, SRM...still need to let us know what kind of eye relief you need...will 4in. be enough?

Also, you had me stumped with "TEOTWAWKI", had to look it up...:eek:
 
I use an EOTEC with no magnifier. Mount the backup sight forward of the EOTEC, it gives a fairly short sight radius but there is precious little room on the reciever rail which is were the optics/holo needs to be unless you have a very solid quad mount. Magnifiers on M4 style weapons are of marginal value IMO.
Unless you are after Prarie Dogs?
 
I'm sorry, gentlemen. I drowning in my own thoughts here. So, as for how much eye relief I'll need, I think around 4 inches, plus or minus a half-inch. The ELCAN Specter OS 3.0 and Leupold CQB scope both provide right at 2.5 inches. And the sight picture just wasn't there while either was mounted as far back the the front end of the Wilson Combat rear flip-up sight. But it was right on once I took this site off and moved either scope the rest of the way to the back end of the rail, about 3/4 to 1 inch difference.
 
a couple of other options and a thought

Option: A claw mounted picatinny on a G3 clone, I've found, let's me carry any magnifying sight I want without interfering with my iron sights at all. That provides reach comensurate with its range, mid-range flexibility and a low-tech fallback.

Option: Some barrel mountable picatinnies for the Mini-30 (and its little brothers) are grooved to not interfere (much) with the iron sights. That's suitable for long-eye-relief, no-to-low magnification optics and delivers close-quarters flexibility and a low-tech fallback, but not much reach.

Thought: Trying to have all these options operational on a single platform can make for a very heavy weapon. Schlepping that platform, plus your ammo, plus your beverages, plus your sandwiches, from the car to the range, would be do-able; but it might suck; and I'm thinking the parking situation (measured as distance from car to distination) is only going to get worse @TEOTWAWKI.
 
Ziess Conquest for the win...seems to be about the only optics that has 4", everything else (non-handgun) is about 2.5-3.5".
 
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