Which Enfield?
- Thread starter chad1043
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DougW
Member
Chad, Century, AIM, and SOG have had some nice #4's, and I think Century has some #1's. AIM and SOG may also, come to think about it. The best thing is to get a bunch while there are still some available.
alamo
Member
AIM is out but SOG has some, but don't get the "Sporter":
http://www.southernohiogun.com/surrifle.htm
http://www.southernohiogun.com/surrifle.htm
atek3
Member
Get the Indian 2A. The ability to shoot 7.62x51 NATO is great...
atek3
atek3
alamo
Member
AIM does have those. I was thinking of the No.1s and No.4s.
http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/Enf-2A__Enfield_2A_.308_NATO_7.62x51_Rifles.html
nwilliams
Member
I have a No.4 Mk1 that I really love. Shoots great and most of the ones I've seen are in very good condition.
I also like the Cad Technik scope mount that is avalible for the No.4. I have one on mine and I love it!
Have you considered the Jungle Carbine? I have one of those and its a hoot to shoot! Theyre a bit more $$ but and harder to find but theyre fun.
www.surplusrifle.com/reviews/cadtechnikno4/index.asp
I also like the Cad Technik scope mount that is avalible for the No.4. I have one on mine and I love it!
Have you considered the Jungle Carbine? I have one of those and its a hoot to shoot! Theyre a bit more $$ but and harder to find but theyre fun.
www.surplusrifle.com/reviews/cadtechnikno4/index.asp
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The better shooters are the No4MkI (or MkI* or MkII). They have much improved sights, and balance better (IMO).
If you really want a collection, you'll definitely need both one of those and a No1MkIII (the No1 was the British WWI rifle, and the No4 was their WWII rifle). Once you have each of the two major designs, then you can start working on have each variant and each arsenal.
If you really want a collection, you'll definitely need both one of those and a No1MkIII (the No1 was the British WWI rifle, and the No4 was their WWII rifle). Once you have each of the two major designs, then you can start working on have each variant and each arsenal.
hank327
Member
Look for a No 4 Mk II. These were the very last of the Enfields made. They were manufactured in the early to mid 1950's and you can find them in like new condition. Some can still be found in unissued condition and others still in the wrap. I have one that was made in 1955 and was unissued.
Most of the No 4 Mk I's that are on sale now on the internet are in very rough shape. I wouldn't buy one sight unseen over the internet. As long as 15 years ago or so, I had my local dealer order me a No 4 Mk I that was rated by the seller as being in very good condition. When I received it, it was fit only to be a boat anchor. Most of the Indian Enfields I've seen are also in very poor shape.
I really like the No 1 MkIIIs but they are hard to find in decent shape. These have been through 2 world wars and countless small ones. The Australian No 1 MkIIIs are probably the ones most likely to be found in the best condition. The Aussies never adopted the No 4s and continued production of the No 1 MkIIIs up until the early 1950's. These were made at the Lithgow armory and will be so marked.
Most of the No 4 Mk I's that are on sale now on the internet are in very rough shape. I wouldn't buy one sight unseen over the internet. As long as 15 years ago or so, I had my local dealer order me a No 4 Mk I that was rated by the seller as being in very good condition. When I received it, it was fit only to be a boat anchor. Most of the Indian Enfields I've seen are also in very poor shape.
I really like the No 1 MkIIIs but they are hard to find in decent shape. These have been through 2 world wars and countless small ones. The Australian No 1 MkIIIs are probably the ones most likely to be found in the best condition. The Aussies never adopted the No 4s and continued production of the No 1 MkIIIs up until the early 1950's. These were made at the Lithgow armory and will be so marked.
Limeyfellow
Member
If you want a shooter I would suggest finding a No4 Mk2. Most of these have fired very few shots if any so the chances of a long service life of abuse and use is minimal.
No 4 Mk1 have more chance of having served in WW2 and possibility of being through a factory repair (this is usually marked with an FTR on the reciever, or FR on Ishapore made rifles. Longbranch rifles will not have this marking though if the rifle has been parkarised instead of a blue finish its a good indication it went through repair and refinishing at the end of the war.
North American made rifles are usually a No4 Mk1* which had the design modified on how to release the bolt. The original design has a push down button that allows you to raise the bolt head and remove the bolt. The Mk1* have a notch on the side of the reciever that you life the bolt head up from.
The advantages of the No4 Mk1 design is a superior peep sight, a heavy free floated barrel and its the strongest of all the Lee Enfield actions. They make excellent rifle and shoot well at distances. I've used my Canadian Longbranch No4 Mk1* from 1943 and my British Fazakerley 1942 Mk4 Mk1 at ranges up to 600 yards with iron sights and a scope. My wife gets rather upset when I use here BSA made No4 Mk1.
The other most common one to find is the NoI MkIII. Notice they had a different naming convention based on latin back then. This is your rifle from before WW1 all the way up until 1942 and even further with colonial forces such as the Australians. Of these I have a Aussie made Lithgow from 1941 and a BSA from 1918. These have classic open sights on them which I do perfer the peep sight on other rifles, but they are rediclously fast and accurate. The speed record on a bolt action rifle is still owned by this rifle. The other cool factor is they have an 18 inch bayonet you can stick on the end and nothing looks so awesome as this.
The No5 Lee Enfield is a shortened and lightened version based on the No4. It has a distinctive cone shape on the end so you don't get blinded from the flash. These are much more expensive and there are alot of fakes around of cut down No4s and No1 (as well as 2as and 2a1s) The fakes were mainly made by american companies in the 1960s. The true No5s only served in the mid to late 40s when they were dropped over reported wandering of the front sight. I only been able to fire a No5 a few times and they have quite a kick to them with heavy ball ammo though they did try and make it easier on the shoulder with a hard rubber butt pad. the fake No5s are about a pound or so heavier and the kick isn't so bad but they have a habit of shooting the cone off the end fifty feet down range.
The Ishapore 2as and 2a1s (the later have a different sight on it only going out to 800 metres instead of 2000 metres). These were made in India in the 1950s and saw a strengthing of the No1 Mk3 rifle with newer alloys to handle the higher pressures of 7.62 nato ammo. Thats probrobly there greatest advantage that its alot easier to go into a shop and find 7.62 nato or .308 winchester than .303 British. They have a different magazines design that can hold 12 rounds instead of the standard 10 due to the smaller size rounds. The 2as and 2a1s are not as refined as the other Lee Enfields however. They are blocky, the finish is less well done but for a $200 rifle they are really well liked by people. You might also come across some Ishapores that have been converted to a single shot .410 shotgun. There were used for riot control and fire the British .410 shell which is shorter than the standard US shell so a number have been reemed out on the US market to handle the 3 inch long shells so you have to be careful when buying one to make sure you can get the right shells.
Other Lee Enfields get progressively rarer and the chances of finding them is equally rarer and more expensive, including No4s converted to 7.62mm nato and designated the L9 series, various sniper rifles such as the No4 Mk1(T) in .303 British which alot of these have been faked over the years and they aren't too hard to make all the way to the super rare L39 target rifle to L42 sniper rifle. Any of the last two would be on my dream list unfortantly they are very rare.
I would recommend any of the No4 rifles, No1 rifles or 2a1s. All make fine rifles and can be found from $100-250 depending on conditions nowadays.
No 4 Mk1 have more chance of having served in WW2 and possibility of being through a factory repair (this is usually marked with an FTR on the reciever, or FR on Ishapore made rifles. Longbranch rifles will not have this marking though if the rifle has been parkarised instead of a blue finish its a good indication it went through repair and refinishing at the end of the war.
North American made rifles are usually a No4 Mk1* which had the design modified on how to release the bolt. The original design has a push down button that allows you to raise the bolt head and remove the bolt. The Mk1* have a notch on the side of the reciever that you life the bolt head up from.
The advantages of the No4 Mk1 design is a superior peep sight, a heavy free floated barrel and its the strongest of all the Lee Enfield actions. They make excellent rifle and shoot well at distances. I've used my Canadian Longbranch No4 Mk1* from 1943 and my British Fazakerley 1942 Mk4 Mk1 at ranges up to 600 yards with iron sights and a scope. My wife gets rather upset when I use here BSA made No4 Mk1.
The other most common one to find is the NoI MkIII. Notice they had a different naming convention based on latin back then. This is your rifle from before WW1 all the way up until 1942 and even further with colonial forces such as the Australians. Of these I have a Aussie made Lithgow from 1941 and a BSA from 1918. These have classic open sights on them which I do perfer the peep sight on other rifles, but they are rediclously fast and accurate. The speed record on a bolt action rifle is still owned by this rifle. The other cool factor is they have an 18 inch bayonet you can stick on the end and nothing looks so awesome as this.
The No5 Lee Enfield is a shortened and lightened version based on the No4. It has a distinctive cone shape on the end so you don't get blinded from the flash. These are much more expensive and there are alot of fakes around of cut down No4s and No1 (as well as 2as and 2a1s) The fakes were mainly made by american companies in the 1960s. The true No5s only served in the mid to late 40s when they were dropped over reported wandering of the front sight. I only been able to fire a No5 a few times and they have quite a kick to them with heavy ball ammo though they did try and make it easier on the shoulder with a hard rubber butt pad. the fake No5s are about a pound or so heavier and the kick isn't so bad but they have a habit of shooting the cone off the end fifty feet down range.
The Ishapore 2as and 2a1s (the later have a different sight on it only going out to 800 metres instead of 2000 metres). These were made in India in the 1950s and saw a strengthing of the No1 Mk3 rifle with newer alloys to handle the higher pressures of 7.62 nato ammo. Thats probrobly there greatest advantage that its alot easier to go into a shop and find 7.62 nato or .308 winchester than .303 British. They have a different magazines design that can hold 12 rounds instead of the standard 10 due to the smaller size rounds. The 2as and 2a1s are not as refined as the other Lee Enfields however. They are blocky, the finish is less well done but for a $200 rifle they are really well liked by people. You might also come across some Ishapores that have been converted to a single shot .410 shotgun. There were used for riot control and fire the British .410 shell which is shorter than the standard US shell so a number have been reemed out on the US market to handle the 3 inch long shells so you have to be careful when buying one to make sure you can get the right shells.
Other Lee Enfields get progressively rarer and the chances of finding them is equally rarer and more expensive, including No4s converted to 7.62mm nato and designated the L9 series, various sniper rifles such as the No4 Mk1(T) in .303 British which alot of these have been faked over the years and they aren't too hard to make all the way to the super rare L39 target rifle to L42 sniper rifle. Any of the last two would be on my dream list unfortantly they are very rare.
I would recommend any of the No4 rifles, No1 rifles or 2a1s. All make fine rifles and can be found from $100-250 depending on conditions nowadays.
Gun Wielding Maniac
Member
Ughh.. where are you getting this? SG has the .303 Brit surplus for .14 cents a round. As does Rguns.
tinygnat219
Member
Gun Wielding Maniac,
You don't want the SG .303 Surplus. It's complete crap. Out of 10 rounds I took to the range, I had 3 misfires (it took 3 tries to "cook" the round off) and 5 hangfires (Click....1...2...3... BANG). That's 8 out of 10. This stuff is generally WWII production and in my humble opinion is NOT safe to fire.
You don't want the SG .303 Surplus. It's complete crap. Out of 10 rounds I took to the range, I had 3 misfires (it took 3 tries to "cook" the round off) and 5 hangfires (Click....1...2...3... BANG). That's 8 out of 10. This stuff is generally WWII production and in my humble opinion is NOT safe to fire.
When you say North American are you talking about the Savage breed? Also does it really matter all that much if they are reissued WWII rifles No.4 Mrk1? I'm not really going for huge marksmanship, more for a collection. I found a couple at impact guns and J&G Sales that have good prices on them...
I have put in to get my C&R so I will able to buy direct.
Thanks for all the info...
Can't wait to start asking questions about the Garand...
I have put in to get my C&R so I will able to buy direct.
Thanks for all the info...
Can't wait to start asking questions about the Garand...
well. i havnt found surplus 303 for any spectacular price. id hardly say 7.62N is "hard to find"
if 303 surplus is out there. i donno for how much longer. especialy not in quality or quantity comparable to other surplus such as 8MM mauser or 7.62X54r
if 303 surplus is out there. i donno for how much longer. especialy not in quality or quantity comparable to other surplus such as 8MM mauser or 7.62X54r
Limeyfellow
Member
The Pakistani surplus .303 British is really bad for reliabilty. Some batches give you terrible results. Some a little better.
The best stuff I found is the 1950s British and Greek stuff. Of course its far more common in the commonwealth countries.
The commercial stuff has a habit of being underloaded, due to manufacturers not wanting to get sued because some idiot fires a round out of a rifle they shouldn't. Some is hotter loaded than others of course.
To get the most out of it, its best to reload, especially if you want to put in a sp or hp ammo for a worth while price.
The best stuff I found is the 1950s British and Greek stuff. Of course its far more common in the commonwealth countries.
The commercial stuff has a habit of being underloaded, due to manufacturers not wanting to get sued because some idiot fires a round out of a rifle they shouldn't. Some is hotter loaded than others of course.
To get the most out of it, its best to reload, especially if you want to put in a sp or hp ammo for a worth while price.
nwilliams
Member
Sure you can shoot commercial .308Win through them but they are chambered for 7.62 Nato, personally I wouldn't do it but thats JMHO some people have no issue about it.
As for for 7.62N not being hard to find? Seems pretty hard to find any of the good stuff anymore. Do a search on here you'll find lots of people are having trouble finding it.
As for .303 being more expensive than commercial .308....um yeah the hunting rounds maybe. I buy S&B for about $13 a box, last I checked commercial .308 wasn't that much cheaper. Also Wolf makes it for about the same price and Remington UMC .303 is just slightly more.
As for for 7.62N not being hard to find? Seems pretty hard to find any of the good stuff anymore. Do a search on here you'll find lots of people are having trouble finding it.
As for .303 being more expensive than commercial .308....um yeah the hunting rounds maybe. I buy S&B for about $13 a box, last I checked commercial .308 wasn't that much cheaper. Also Wolf makes it for about the same price and Remington UMC .303 is just slightly more.
4fingermick
Member
You are more likely to find a No4Mk1 or 2 in better shooting condition in my experience.
Both are as slick as frog snot and have lovely lines. The No1s suffer from a floating zero sometimes but the No4s are generally more accurate. Some of the pre WW2 No1s are extremely well made and finished and are a joy just for that.
No4s converted to 7.62s are a bit of a pig in a poke, you are starting to stretch the friendship. This is a Lithgow conversion, rare as rocking horse poop, sold to a friend:
The Ishapores are as rough as guts, but if you have heaps of 7.62 they are an option. I never cared for them myself.
I'd go No4 and reload, you will get pretty good results with a bit of attention.
You will probably be governed by what you strike first.
Of course, there is always the P14/M17 Enfield, another nice rifle.
Both are as slick as frog snot and have lovely lines. The No1s suffer from a floating zero sometimes but the No4s are generally more accurate. Some of the pre WW2 No1s are extremely well made and finished and are a joy just for that.
No4s converted to 7.62s are a bit of a pig in a poke, you are starting to stretch the friendship. This is a Lithgow conversion, rare as rocking horse poop, sold to a friend:
The Ishapores are as rough as guts, but if you have heaps of 7.62 they are an option. I never cared for them myself.
I'd go No4 and reload, you will get pretty good results with a bit of attention.
You will probably be governed by what you strike first.
Of course, there is always the P14/M17 Enfield, another nice rifle.
cracked butt
Member
Kind of an oddball enfield, but Century is selling them now: Ishapore Wirewrap No1MKIII* grenade launching rifles. I was always skeptical about these, but bought one a few years ago and it turned out to be a pleasant suprise. Under the nasty looking wood, the cheap looking paint job (they used paint instead of bluing) lie a very nice shooting rifle.
Limeyfellow
Member
Those wirewrapped Lee Enfields aren't that bad. I did have one for a while I picked up for a $100 with the grenade launcher. The only problem I found is the wire is not meant for removing and if you do you need a machine to add the stuff back again. If you don't take off the wire however you can't check the outside of the barrel for rust, but they tend to have good mirror bright barrels on the inside.
The paint is really cheap enamel based paint and thats one of the problems with Ishapores in general. It tends to chip and runs though you could try and fix it up. Doesn't compare to the British suncorite paint process.
The paint is really cheap enamel based paint and thats one of the problems with Ishapores in general. It tends to chip and runs though you could try and fix it up. Doesn't compare to the British suncorite paint process.
Oohrah
Member
Get as many as you can afford. Since the 303 is obsolete due to
no army uses it, ammo (surplus ) most likely will contine to dwindle.
Suggest an Isy for shooting as 308 amo will remain for some time
even though surplus is at a low point. I due own and have had for over
30 years, the sniper version. A excellet shooter that I use only handloads
with commercial cases. With the rimed 303,and springy action, I neck
size only. I get four or five reloads before I really start checking for
the start of head separations. The 308 will give you many more reloads
before case retirement. I don't think I would purchase any without a
hands on inspection. They come in any and all conditions.
no army uses it, ammo (surplus ) most likely will contine to dwindle.
Suggest an Isy for shooting as 308 amo will remain for some time
even though surplus is at a low point. I due own and have had for over
30 years, the sniper version. A excellet shooter that I use only handloads
with commercial cases. With the rimed 303,and springy action, I neck
size only. I get four or five reloads before I really start checking for
the start of head separations. The 308 will give you many more reloads
before case retirement. I don't think I would purchase any without a
hands on inspection. They come in any and all conditions.
MJ
Member
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- Sep 6, 2005
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- 943
I have always reloaded for .303
No point in using surplus even .308 when your limited to the number of rounds some of these older guns get each year. Why fool around, get the most out of each range day. Ammo matched to the rifle will always shoot better. I tried to neck size but keeping seperate ammo for each rifle just won't work for me so I FL size and grab what ever rifle I fancy that day. @ $16 per 100 cases I get 400 shots per 100 cases before replacing them. I keep 200 .303 cases on hand and 400 LC match .308 cases in rotation for my .308's.
Cheers
MJ
No point in using surplus even .308 when your limited to the number of rounds some of these older guns get each year. Why fool around, get the most out of each range day. Ammo matched to the rifle will always shoot better. I tried to neck size but keeping seperate ammo for each rifle just won't work for me so I FL size and grab what ever rifle I fancy that day. @ $16 per 100 cases I get 400 shots per 100 cases before replacing them. I keep 200 .303 cases on hand and 400 LC match .308 cases in rotation for my .308's.
Cheers
MJ
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