Which handgun point shoots/hipfires the best for you? I tried SAA, 1911, Glock
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trackskippy
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I point shoot in some manner, pretty much everything I shoot, every time Im out with it, even if its just a mag or cylinder or two. And I normally dont have any issues shooting them this way, as long as Ive shot them, or something similar to them before. If you only shoot one gun this way, its likely going to be the only one you get good with, until you broaden your base.
I dont think this is as much the gun, as it is you having experience shooting whatever it is that way, and your brain has the cues/indexes it requires to shoot that way recorded, so you dont have to think about shooting like that. It doesnt have to be exact/specific guns, but similar, general types. Most autos translate, as do most DA revolvers, ect.
Its like anything else too, and the more you practice, the better you get, and the more different types you shoot, the easier more things become. And you will always need to maintain and continue to improve those skills too. If youre not at least regularly keeping up, you'll always be falling behind.
I dont think this is as much the gun, as it is you having experience shooting whatever it is that way, and your brain has the cues/indexes it requires to shoot that way recorded, so you dont have to think about shooting like that. It doesnt have to be exact/specific guns, but similar, general types. Most autos translate, as do most DA revolvers, ect.
Its like anything else too, and the more you practice, the better you get, and the more different types you shoot, the easier more things become. And you will always need to maintain and continue to improve those skills too. If youre not at least regularly keeping up, you'll always be falling behind.
Obturation
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Not saying that it's currently this way but there was a time I could point shoot an SAA pretty darn well. Revolvers shoot best for me and the right one will make me look better than I am.
If I want to “point shoot,” it is a mistake, for me, to “index my elbow against my torso for a more repeatable shooting position.” Well, actually, at two yards’ distance, I used to fire the first stage of my annual pistol qual, with my elbow against my torso, because that was exactly what I was required to do, by PD policy. Some time, in the past, that was how the PD had interpreted point/hip shooting. The problem, here, was that it only worked well for windage. (Left and right orientation.) Control of elevation was poor. This technique also required that the shooter stand with the feet placed just so.
Notably, during those quals, at the two yard line, I tended to string my shots vertically. The first was usually high, the second was usually low, and the third tended to be about where I wanted, in the ten-ring. There was a cure for that vertical stringing, but it required extended my arm farther forward, with my elbow not in contact with my torso, as described below.
The late, great Bill Jordan, in his book, _No Second Place Winner_, described a better way to point-shoot, and it had nothing to do with indexing against the hip, or placing the elbow against the torso. Bill Jordan wrote words to the effect that the shooter extends the arms farther than either of those methods, until a tightening of shoulder muscles was perceived. I cannot provide an exact quote, as most of my books that survived a flood, 5+ years ago, are in storage. My take, on what Bill Jordan wrote, is what I developed into a reasonably effective point-shooting technique, which is optimized by using a revolver with four or more inches of barrel, or a full-sized, 5”, all-steel, Government Model-sized 1911 pistol. In addition to the shoulder muscles being somewhat tightened, it is better if my bicep is tightened against the pec.
To qual, for the record, I could not use Bill Jordan’s point-shooting technique, because “hip-shooting” was what was required at the two-yard stage.
Later, in 2005, during Shivwork’s Extreme Close Quarters Concepts class, ECQC, I learned to index the flagged thumb against the pec muscle, to fire high into a standing opponent’s torso. This position was much more effective for retaining one’s weapon, than hip-shooting, or the Bill Jordan technique. This is something that I would ONLY use when necessary, to keep a pistols out fo the physical reach of an opponent. If an opponent is farther away, the weapon is extended, accordingly.
Which one handgun “point shoots” the best, for me? Well, an SAA-pattern Single Action, a Ruger GP100, assuming original-pattern factory grips, are about tied. An S&W revolver can be about as good, with aftermarket or custom grips. The barrel needs to be 4” or longer, for best results, and not thin-walled; the balance needs to be a bit out there, toward the muzzle.
Notably, during those quals, at the two yard line, I tended to string my shots vertically. The first was usually high, the second was usually low, and the third tended to be about where I wanted, in the ten-ring. There was a cure for that vertical stringing, but it required extended my arm farther forward, with my elbow not in contact with my torso, as described below.
The late, great Bill Jordan, in his book, _No Second Place Winner_, described a better way to point-shoot, and it had nothing to do with indexing against the hip, or placing the elbow against the torso. Bill Jordan wrote words to the effect that the shooter extends the arms farther than either of those methods, until a tightening of shoulder muscles was perceived. I cannot provide an exact quote, as most of my books that survived a flood, 5+ years ago, are in storage. My take, on what Bill Jordan wrote, is what I developed into a reasonably effective point-shooting technique, which is optimized by using a revolver with four or more inches of barrel, or a full-sized, 5”, all-steel, Government Model-sized 1911 pistol. In addition to the shoulder muscles being somewhat tightened, it is better if my bicep is tightened against the pec.
To qual, for the record, I could not use Bill Jordan’s point-shooting technique, because “hip-shooting” was what was required at the two-yard stage.
Later, in 2005, during Shivwork’s Extreme Close Quarters Concepts class, ECQC, I learned to index the flagged thumb against the pec muscle, to fire high into a standing opponent’s torso. This position was much more effective for retaining one’s weapon, than hip-shooting, or the Bill Jordan technique. This is something that I would ONLY use when necessary, to keep a pistols out fo the physical reach of an opponent. If an opponent is farther away, the weapon is extended, accordingly.
Which one handgun “point shoots” the best, for me? Well, an SAA-pattern Single Action, a Ruger GP100, assuming original-pattern factory grips, are about tied. An S&W revolver can be about as good, with aftermarket or custom grips. The barrel needs to be 4” or longer, for best results, and not thin-walled; the balance needs to be a bit out there, toward the muzzle.
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Bcwitt
Member
My G17 points nicely. I have a Tac sol 22lr unit that keeps the blast down when making hip shots. I havent needed to reload 9mm since I got that. Is very fast from a hip holster.
jrmiddleton425
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What Robert Vogel (EDIT: skinnier guy I think) is doing in this video, is what I know as point shooting. Bottom line up front, you still need to aim. You just do it without using the sights.
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The secret to natural pointing is to not overthink it. Just point and shoot in one motion. One can get pretty good at it if they burn alot of reps with a laser dry fire cartridge or a SIRT pistol that gives instant feedback.
While I don't believe shooting from the hip is a good tactic for anything other than retention shooting within arms reach of someone, point shooting on the other hand where one raises the pistol just below eye level can be remarkably accurate at much greater distances.
I train to use my sights but I do think that training point shooting has some value in developing a natural point of aim with a pistol that may be useful under stress where one forgets to look at their sights. I've done fairly well with SAAs, 1911s and Glocks.
While I don't believe shooting from the hip is a good tactic for anything other than retention shooting within arms reach of someone, point shooting on the other hand where one raises the pistol just below eye level can be remarkably accurate at much greater distances.
I train to use my sights but I do think that training point shooting has some value in developing a natural point of aim with a pistol that may be useful under stress where one forgets to look at their sights. I've done fairly well with SAAs, 1911s and Glocks.
Archie
Member
The arm and load with which I practice the most.
I reject the idea of 'natural' point of fire. Unless the idea that the idea with come to one 'naturally' after practice.
I reject the idea of 'natural' point of fire. Unless the idea that the idea with come to one 'naturally' after practice.
PistoleroWadcutterGANG
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A Smith 39 for me.
(Reference pic)
(Reference pic)
Corpral_Agarn
Member
First off, good on you for actually getting semi scientific with testing this.
I did an even less scientific test just yesterday and I don't know how or why exactly but my results yielded the same as yours.
IDK know what about the SAA makes it good for quick and point shooting but I can tell you it works.
I point a 1911.
My wife and several friends point CZ 75 types.
Our daughter points a Gen 2 Glock 19.
The point is to find what points naturally for you so you don't have to make yourself conform to a gun.
My wife and several friends point CZ 75 types.
Our daughter points a Gen 2 Glock 19.
The point is to find what points naturally for you so you don't have to make yourself conform to a gun.
trackskippy
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Most of the guns dont really have that much of a difference in their grip angles. If you shoot the different guns enough to get familiar with them, which really isnt much, I think you'll find you actually point them all naturally and without effort.
If you start with tracking the sights as you present the gun and shoot, youre already training your brain and giving it what it needs to do it without the sights, and your brain will retain those cues.
Now, if all youre shooting and know is one gun, your experience is likely to be a little different.
I know this seems to come up a lot as a problem for some people, but, other than a lack of a broader experience with things, its really not.
If you start with tracking the sights as you present the gun and shoot, youre already training your brain and giving it what it needs to do it without the sights, and your brain will retain those cues.
Now, if all youre shooting and know is one gun, your experience is likely to be a little different.
I know this seems to come up a lot as a problem for some people, but, other than a lack of a broader experience with things, its really not.
tark
Member
Actually got to fire a Japanese type 14 Nambu last week. It was an early one with exquisite build quality. Now, these pistols are perhaps the second worse military pistol ever issued, ( The type 94 is probably the worst ) They are low powered, prone to breakage and have the worst safety ever put on an autoloading pistol.
I was shocked.
The gun felt good in my hand and it pointed naturally, like a Luger. The trigger was nothing short of fantastic. It felt like my avatar's trigger. Recoil was not much more than a .22. At 15 yards, off the bench, it put five in one hole. The barrel on these guns remains stationary, like a Luger's barrel, during firing.
I have never seen a pistol with so many bad features that was also possessed of so many good qualities, but it is probably the best naturally pointing handgun I have ever fired.
I was shocked.
The gun felt good in my hand and it pointed naturally, like a Luger. The trigger was nothing short of fantastic. It felt like my avatar's trigger. Recoil was not much more than a .22. At 15 yards, off the bench, it put five in one hole. The barrel on these guns remains stationary, like a Luger's barrel, during firing.
I have never seen a pistol with so many bad features that was also possessed of so many good qualities, but it is probably the best naturally pointing handgun I have ever fired.
One of the best and easiest hip shot guns is a S&W Model 10. Mine is a 10-5, 4 inch. Which I just started to play with after reading a few books.
Bill Jordan, "No Second Chance"; Bob Nichols, "The Secrets of Double Action Shooting"; Ed McGivern, Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting. Now in reading these books you have to study what they say. Each author has their own bias and b.s., but read on how they train to become good shooters. It's worthwhile. You will find their applications can be transferred to all types of handguns.
Bill Jordan, "No Second Chance"; Bob Nichols, "The Secrets of Double Action Shooting"; Ed McGivern, Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting. Now in reading these books you have to study what they say. Each author has their own bias and b.s., but read on how they train to become good shooters. It's worthwhile. You will find their applications can be transferred to all types of handguns.
