Which handgun point shoots/hipfires the best for you? I tried SAA, 1911, Glock

[1KPerDay]

I was curious about the oft-repeated maxim that the Colt SAA is the "most natural-pointing handgun ever made" and decided to try some hip-fire/point shooting at 3, 5, and 7 yards with no warm-up, no real practice before, and no training.

From 3 and 5 yards with the SAA (actually an Uberti Cattleman "hombre" 4 3/4" .45 Colt) I got all 5 shots on a 2/3rds sized IDPA torso target from the hip, lowering the gun to a resting position between each shot so I couldn't "index" on my previous hit or miss. At 7 yards my first shot was dead center but I missed 3 and hit 2 overall.

With the 1911 I missed my first shot at 3 yards low, but kept the other 4 shots centered in a vertical string. At 5 yards with the 1911 I missed one left, hit two but on the left side of the plate, and missed 2 off to the right. At 7 I couldn't hit any with the 1911. Most went low.

With the Glock 22/17 (22 with 9mm conversion barrel) I got the best overall hits at 3 yards, hitting 3 in a good center group with two shots on the left shoulder (from my perspective). It definitely points more naturally to the center from the hip for me than the 1911.

At 5 yards with the Glock I got 4 hits and missed one high right. At 7 yards with the Glock I got all 5 on the steel, though they were spread out quite a bit.

I tried the Glock at 10 yards since it had done the best at 7. I was only able to hit one shot on the steel at 10 with the Glock.

This is certainly not a scientific test and is completely subjective, and it could be argued that I did better with the Glock because I shot it last. However, I did much better with the SAA at all distances than I did with the 1911, so maybe that says something.

Anyway, it was fun. I think if I try harder to index my elbow against my torso for a more repeatable shooting position I might improve, or maybe try the FBI crouch/stance LOL.

Video for any interested:

 

[AlexanderA]

I can tell you which handgun doesn't have good ergonomics for me: any double action revolver. Single actions are fine.

 

[Charlie98]

SA's don't really point naturally for me, I'm far better with a DA revolver. Having said that, the 1911 points the best for me. The caveat to that is... my carry piece, a Kahr CW9, points the bestest... but that very well may be that I drill with it more than my 1911 and I'm just used to it.

I have to laugh... this thread reminds me of Back in the Day when I was stationed at Fort Carson. I bought a Ruger Single-Six so I could 'cowboy up' and learn how to shoot from the hip... Nevermind the Nikes and '80's hair...

 

[1KPerDay]

@Charlie98 that's a great pic!

 

[1KPerDay]

I can tell you which handgun doesn't have good ergonomics for me: any double action revolver. Single actions are fine.

Interesting. I'll have to try a DA next.

 

[LiveLife]

I was curious ... and decided to try some hip-fire/point shooting at 3, 5, and 7 yards with no warm-up, no real practice before, and no training.

You finally tried it!

With the Glock 22/17 (22 with 9mm conversion barrel) I got the best overall hits at 3 yards, hitting 3 in a good center group with two shots on the left shoulder (from my perspective). It definitely points more naturally to the center from the hip for me than the 1911.

At 5 yards with the Glock I got 4 hits and missed one high right. At 7 yards with the Glock I got all 5 on the steel, though they were spread out quite a bit.

Your results are not surprising as many people I taught/shared point shooting with produced better results with Glock 22/23 with factory 40S&W and 40-9mm conversion barrels, now with Advantage Arms 22LR slide kit.

I tried the Glock at 10 yards since it had done the best at 7. I was only able to hit one shot on the steel at 10 with the Glock.

That's where practice comes in - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/flinching-drills.864546/page-2#post-11416785

Keep in mind that you did this without synchronizing your "natural point of aim" which is fundamental to point shooting. Once you synchronize your "natural point of aim", you will produce smaller groups - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...or-her-first-time-today.908729/#post-12369077

This is certainly not a scientific test and is completely subjective, and it could be argued that I did better with the Glock because I shot it last. However, I did much better with the SAA at all distances than I did with the 1911, so maybe that says something.

I think if I try harder to index my elbow against my torso for a more repeatable shooting position I might improve

For me, hip shots should only be used for attacker in your face, bad-breath threat distance so absolute accuracy is not necessary.

What I suggest to students when sighted full extension stance is not an option and point shooting must be used, is to at least form a modified Isosceles with both elbows/forearms touching the belly/chest to provide support for close quarter point shooting and when space/situation permit, to start extending elbows towards full extension/sight alignment while firing shots.

So you may want to do some "natural point of aim" comparison at 5-7 yards with eyes closed point shooting from draw that's used to synchronize POI with POA.

 

[1KPerDay]

You finally tried it!


Your results are not surprising as many people I taught/shared point shooting with produced better results with Glock 22/23 with factory 40S&W and 40-9mm conversion barrels, now with Advantage Arms 22LR slide kit.


That's where practice comes in - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/flinching-drills.864546/page-2#post-11416785

Keep in mind that you did this without synchronizing your "natural point of aim" which is fundamental to point shooting. Once you synchronize your "natural point of aim", you will produce smaller groups - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...or-her-first-time-today.908729/#post-12369077


For me, hip shots should only be used for attacker in your face, bad-breath threat distance so absolute accuracy is not necessary.

What I suggest to students when sighted full extension stance is not an option and point shooting must be used, is to at least form a modified Isosceles with both elbows/forearms touching the belly/chest to provide support for close quarter point shooting and when space/situation permit, to start extending elbows towards full extension/sight alignment while firing shots.

So you may want to do some "natural point of aim" comparison at 5-7 yards with eyes closed point shooting from draw that's used to synchronize POI with POA.

I hoped you would weigh in. Yeah I should really separate “hip shooting” and “point shooting” as they can look very different.

 

[1KPerDay]

For grins, here's what aliens can do from the hip

 

[.38 Special]

I expect that it's whatever gun you practice with. I went through a Bill Jordan phase a few decades back and got reasonably good - a 6" target was in mortal danger out to 10 feet or so, going as fast as I could from the holster. I played with the set-up (S&W Model 19, Jordan Trooper holster, and wax bullets powered by shotgun primers) again during Covid and discovered that I hadn't lost much, but that I kind of sucked with the SAA. Obviously it's not that the SAA is no good for that kind of work, but that a few thousand repetitions trained my muscles to one particular grip frame angle, and that's that.

 

[trackskippy]

"Hip" shooting is basically contact distance shooting. "Point" shooting, on the other hand, is something everyone should be proficient with, as a lot, if not most of shooting beyond the basics uses it in some form or manner.

And point shooting is simply aimed shooting, using other indexes and without the "conscious" use of the sights.

 

[BreechFace]

This thread made me recollect the same video you posted...

 

[LiveLife]

And point shooting is simply aimed shooting, using other indexes and without the "conscious" use of the sights.

I explain "point shooting" as utilizing lifelong skill of "pointing" with index finger we have already mastered (Most people can point with index finger within an inch of things around the room/house ... I demonstrate this with a pencil laser along my index finger).

To me, it's natural progression of shooting where we initially work to hit the target then work to improve precision and accuracy by enhancing our stance, grip, sight alignment, trigger control and speed. When your "natural point of aim" synchronizes with point of impact with eyes closed/open without using pistol sights, you approach the "Zen" of shooting by making holes appear anywhere on target at will, fast as you can press/reset the trigger.

For grins, here's what aliens can do from the hip

Taran Butler was definitely point shooting with one hand in the video. Fast times too.

 

[Jimster]

My 1911s and 1860 Army feel the best for shooting ergonomics.

 

[Bazoo]

Of the guns ibe messed with, single actions point the best for me from the hip. Single six and blackhawks. 1911 okay, don’t remember Glock. Smith 686 does okay too.

 

[trackskippy]

SA's are the worse. You have to get a beer, light a smoke, and stand perfectly still the whole time, while you wait for that hammer to fall.

 

[jmr40]

It depends on what you're used to.

The original 1911 came with a flat mainspring housing. Soldiers during WW-1 complained that it wasn't a natural pointer and that they kept shooting low, much like you did. They claimed the grip angle on the German Luger was much more natural.

During the 1920's an arched mainspring housing was added to the 1911 which changed the grip angle. This solved the problem. But at some point along the way 1911's became target pistols instead of combat pistols and for slower fire target shooting the flat MSH came back in favor. Most 1911's today come with a flat MSH.

While many complain about the Glock grip angle it was designed to mimic the same grip angle as a 1911 with an arched MSH. If you've spent most of your life shooting 1911's with flat a MSH a Glock will give you problems initially. Most non-shooters who have no previous experience do very well if started on a Glock.

 

[21H40]

The Browning HP is the one that fits me best. My 1911 is close. When I tried a Cimarron version of the 1873, it just never quite felt right.

 

[westernrover]

I tried a similar experiment myself with a different variety of revolvers both single and double action. What I found was that I did better with longer barrels. There is a rationale for longer barrels offering a greater sight radius, but I found that I also shot them distinctively better with point shooting and from the hip or 3/4 hip. I get along very well with a double-action trigger, so I found less difference between DA and SA than I did between snub-nosed guns and those with a long barrel. I'm not saying that snub-nosed guns are inaccurate or that they can't be shot accurately. I just have a harder time getting hits with point-shooting them. I've also found that at 25 yards and beyond, they are much more difficult to be precise with compared to longer barrels. With aimed fire, out to 10 yards, the difference with barrel lengths seems trivial. Between 15 and 25 yards, it depends on the particular sights being compared. Beyond 25 yards, the long barrel seems to give an advatage even when a red dot is used on both guns.

Point shooting is performed with proprioception (also called kinesthesia) -- your brain's subconscious awareness of your body parts' position and orientation. More common activities that use this would be 'instinctive' archery (bows with no peep sights) or throwing darts at a dart board. Repetitive practice is a major benefit to attaining procedural memory (often referred to by the misnomer 'muscle memory').

I believe the reason longer barrels are easier to point-shoot has to do with the angular something-or-other.

 

[1KPerDay]

Makes sense to me, if you’re holding the gun where you can see the barrel. A longer barrel is a more accurate visual guide.

 

[Armored farmer]

The 1911 is a natural pointer for me.

 

[chicharrones]

I can't explain it, but DA revolvers in J-frame and K-frame size put bullets on target pretty naturally for me.

I'm still up in the air on autoloaders.

 

[JR24]

It depends on what you're used to.

Pretty much. Sure something might seem easier on any given day, but simple practice makes everything “natural”

That said, hip shooting and point shooting has always come easier with Glocks for me. Which is funny since I spent so many years hating the “grip angle” until I really put some time in.

 

[someguy2800]

I had about 500 rounds of 9mm I wanted to get rid of so I could use the brass once so I spent a couple hours shooting it all up in my LC9s shooting from chest height like James Bond against a dirt berm so I could spot my misses. I was really surprised how good I got at it after a couple hundred rounds. I was shooting a 15" steel plate at about 10 yards and could hold most of my shots on the plate by the end of it. That skill probably perished in about a month but it was fun.

 

[Armored farmer]

I used to dabble in quick draw which is all hip shooting. I thought I was pretty decent with my 4⅝ Blackhawk, when I got my 1911.... I was certain that I was faster and more accurate with it.

 

[Rule3]

FBI shooting stance!