Which Kalashnikov style rifle would you chose?

[ohgrady]

Saiga 223 or 5.45?

I've decided I'm going to get a Saiga in either 223 or 5.45. Does anyone out there have both that can give an opinion? I've done a few searches regarding the 223 vs. 5.45 round. There are a lot of opinions!

It seems like the biggest drawback to the 5.45 is that it is not made domestically-for now. I know there are dire warnings of the surplus 5.45 drying up, but if that was the case, you can still buy imported 5.45 cheaper at Sportsmans Guide. I admit it would suck to be out of ammo and not be able to (in an emergency) pick up a box at Walmart-I've also found many gun shops don't carry 5.45-two weeks ago a guy in gun shop I stopped at told me he hadn't heard of 5.45. But I don't buy 7.62x39 ammo at Walmart either-I buy (actually I stockpile )Wolf or Brown/Silver/Golden Bear for my SKS and Wasr10 because I don't want to spend $15 a box at Walmart. Even if surplus 5.45 dries up, won't there still be Wolf and Brown Bear etc? It seems to me if somehow 5.45 Russian made Wolf (and other imported brands) were to be cut off, naturally so would other calibers such as 7.62x39 and 7.62x54R.

For the current price of surplus 5.45, given the cost of the Saiga rifles in each caliber, it seems I'd be far ahead financially with the 5.45. When the surplus rounds run out, i'd switch to Wolf/Brown Bear and still be ahead financially.

I did think of a plus of the Saiga 223 - if the SHTF, a guy would likely have an easier time picking up 223 rounds combing through the streets/country side after the battles. And it would probably be easier to trade and pick up on the black mark under that scenario. Now, back to reality - my new Saiga is going to shoot holes in paper. And maybe a couple of varmints if I find my land in the country.

One buddy of mine thinks that 223 ammo will go down if the situation in Afghanistan and Iraq settles. That was his vote for the 223 Saiga. Since money is an object, I'm leaning toward the 5.45. But I'm open to the 223 Saiga if someone can tell me of some great advantage or superior performance of it over the 5.45.

 

[DMK]

I say get the PSL. You can get AKs all over the place. They are almost as common as AR15s with almost as many companies making them. However, the PSL only comes from one factory in Romania and aside from it and it's much more expensive Russian and Chinese cousins, there isn't much else like it out there in 7.62x54R. It's a fairly unique and interesting rifle. Now, you can certainly get a domestic equivalent in the AR10 or M1A platform, and they are great platforms, but they aren't AKs and don't shoot '54R.

As far as the cons for the PSL, no it won't shoot as well as a bolt action "sniper rifle". That isn't what it was built for. It's a long range battle rifle, not a sniper rifle. 1-2MOA is just fine for its intended purpose. You may be able to tweak it a bit and get a higher probability of getting the 1MOA, but don't expect better than that even under the best conditions.

As far as recoil, '54R is pretty much equivalent to .308/762x51 and this is a heavy gun (and it has a spring loaded butt plate). It's not going to have a lot of recoil.

I bought mine for $700 + shipping and transfer fee. I don't think that is a bad price for what you get. Remember, you get a good quality scope with the rifle (the scope goes for like $150 by itself). If you buy a FAL, AR10 or M1A, etc, you have to buy the scope and rings yourself.

If you are concerned about ammo availability, stock up now. It's still fairly cheap. I was buying a case a month for a while and before I knew it, I was sitting on about 10k of the stuff in sealed spam cans. They could ban importation of the stuff today and it wouldn't affect my range time.

 

[ohgrady]

Oh, I want a PSL too!! But if I get a PSL, I'm going to have to sell my AES10B. I hate being on a budget!

For the moment and the current budget, I'd like something a little lighter than the 7.62x54R. Right now there is free shipping on Saiga rifles, so my plan is to pick one up soon since one can be had for $350 to $370 delivered(plus the transfer).

 

[JimmAr]

Just FYI all most of the "cheapish" or majority 5.45 is corrosive.. while the majority of 7.62x39 is not.. theres gunna be some serious windexing going with you on your shooting trips

 

[John Parker]

How did troops clean the corrosive salts from their rifles back in the day? What did they use? Were there company-level supplies of ammonia?

 

[ohgrady]

I've only been shooting surplus/corrosive in my Mosin. The cleaning sucks-especially if you only fired twenty rounds, but you can't beat the price at roughly $4.00 a box.

I haven't shot any corrosive out of my 7.62x39 rifles-I purchased Wolf ammo cheaper than corrosive surplus and didn't see why I'd want surplus given the price and corrosive issues.

 

[OrangePwrx9]

ohgrady,
There was a thread over at saiga-12.com in the .223 forum about advantages of 5.45x39 over .223. Seemed like the only real advantage was low price. In every other respect, the .223 had it beat. As I recall, with equal weight bullets, you give up around 200fps at the muzzle with 5.45. Obviously that can't be true at all bullet weights.

Of my 3 Saigas, the .223 is a favorite. Seems more accurate than the 7.62x39s and the Wolf steel-case .223 is Boxer primed and can be reloaded. I might get another.
Bob

 

[nalioth]

theres gunna be some serious windexing going with you on your shooting trips

I DO wish this myth would die.

Windex provides the mystic chemical "dihydrogen monoxide" for the purpose of cleansing. It is the DMHO that is responsible for the reduction or dilution of the corrosive salts.

The reason "windex" keeps showing up is that it usually comes in a convenient-to-carry container - nothing more.

How did troops clean the corrosive salts from their rifles back in the day? What did they use? Were there company-level supplies of ammonia?

"Ammonia" does nothing for corrosive salts. Ammonia will dissolve copper, in large amounts.

Troops used hot soapy water (if available) during the black powder days, and heavy duty solvents during the modern cartridge era (so heavy duty, the EPA won't allow them to be made any more).

 

[fattboyzz]

the Saiga is a great choice !! .... I bought a Saiga in 308win with the 16" barrel back in the summer and plan on it being my brush gun for deer season ! very accurate ,fun an alot of firepower in 308 ....

I was gonna suggest it in favor of the romak 762x54 since the match ammo for 308 can be found !

 

[buck00]

Ak-74 variant (5.45)
Pros:
Cheap ammo
Lightweight
light recoil
could make great HD rifle

Yes, hands down its a great rifle.

Cons:
hard to find "match" ammo for it or quality HD ammo for it

HD ammo? First, most people use a shotgun or pistol for "HD" but in general, military surplus will be fine. However if you're that into it, apparently Hornady will have 5.45 soon.

some shoddy builds of rifles out there

Absolutely. This makes sense because a flood of Bulgy AK-74 kits hit the states in early 2009 and they were being slapped together hoping to benefit from the waning days of "Obama-panic." Now that things have stabilized, some of these kits are being made by good builders. Right now, Lancaster is building really nice AK-74 rifles for $650 to $700 which is really low considering the quality.

http://www.lancasterarms.com/

expensive price for most rifles (not counting wasr 5.45 im not considering it) mags are hard to find in my area

You can pick up surplus ammo for $150 per 1080 which is a great price. Yes its corrosive but you show a little responsibility and CLEAN your rifle after shooting. For some reason this is strange to some people... for others its common sense.

PSL romak rifle (7.62x54r)
Pros:
again cheap ammo but not as cheap as it used to be
powerful round and better at extended range
more accurate
can find match ammo if you look hard enough
fun to shoot

Note- this is a very biased review. I owned a PSL and feel its a total novelty. It is NOT a "poor man's dragunov", it is simply a LONG AK that shoots 7.62 x 54r. They are ok but nothing special. Do not confuse these with an NDM-86.

Best of luck.

 

[ohgrady]

There was a thread over at saiga-12.com in the .223 forum about advantages of 5.45x39 over .223.

I'm exploring the Saiga-12 forum-yes they have several threads on point.

I found this ballistics comparison at AmmoGuide. The side-by-side comparison of the 223 vs the 5.45 puts the 223 ahead. I've read of the tumbling of the 5.45, but don't know if that's the case with commercial Wolf 5.45 ammo?

http://ammoguide.com/cgi-bin/bcompare.cgi?sn=VqtXsVbhAA

Ah the decisions.........

A tin of 5.45 surplus at Sportsmans Guide would last me a year. And it would be cheap shooting, especially since I belong to the buyers club and could use a coupon code for $10.00 off.

 

[Quiet]

IMO...
Currently, the Saiga-5.45 are the best platform for a 5.45x39mm rifle. Priced in the mid-$300s. Comes with a chrome-lined barrel and can use AK74 magazines. It's also made in the same factory that makes AKs for the Russian military.

If you are going with a 5.45x39mm rifle, try and get one with a chrome-lined barrel. Almost all of the parts kit guns (Bulgarian AK74, Polish Tantel) do not have a chrome-lined barrel, so you will need to be on top of cleaning it.
I'm use to treating AKs, like AKs (shoot a few thousand rounds between cleanings. shot 5000 rounds of surplus FMJs through a Norinco MAK90 over 2 years, never cleaned it, never had any problems with it). So, a chrome-lined barrel is a must for me.

 

[JimmAr]

I DO wish this myth would die.

Windex provides the mystic chemical "dihydrogen monoxide" for the purpose of cleansing. It is the DMHO that is responsible for the reduction or dilution of the corrosive salts.

The reason "windex" keeps showing up is that it usually comes in a convenient-to-carry container - nothing more.

I Dont remember going over the chemicals that did or didnt work so dont blame me buddy blame the popular advertisement..

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/edu13.htm

http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting/corrosive/index.asp