Trying to chose a 9x19 rifle

[Girodin]

I would like to acquire some more NFA items. I would like to get my forms pending prior to the changes for trusts taking effect. I plan to buy a .30 cal can and to submit a form on a couple other guns. I also am considering doing a ranch hand just because a shorty lever gun is cool and I like to play cowboy sometimes. I also plan to submit a stamp on a glock mag AR lower. One gun I have wanted for a while is a 9x19 SBR. There are a lot of options in this field. Unfortunately non of them seem to stand out to me as an obvious choice. I have been paralyzed by indecsion and now with the deadline looming and finances strained as I just to squeeze a number of projects in under that deadline I'm trying to finally make up my mind.

I'd love to hear thoughts on which 9x19 rifle to get.


I see this gun filling two possible niches:

First, and predominantly, as a fun gun to shoot 9x19 and suppressed 147 grain sub sonic 9x19. It is more affordable subsonic shooting than the 300 Blk. I like iconic guns and while that takes a back seat for guns that primarily tools for range toys and the personal reference collection its a pro.

Secondly, as a compact gun offering additional capability over a duty sized handgun, but filing a different niche from the 7.62x39, 5.56, and 300 Blk SBRs available to me. This includes suppressed shooting. To be used from 0-150 yards or so.

Categories that weigh into it:

Proven design and quality gun: Since this will become an SBR and part fo the push is to get a stamp in before the trust changes take effect having the thing work right is at an even higher premium than normal.

Small and light: The second use of being a useful intermediate option between a full size handgun and a 10.5" AR isn't really achieved by a gun that's the same size or bigger than a 10.5" AR or an 11.5" AK w/folding stock. Folding or collapsible stocks are a plus here too. I have really come to appreciate them for storing or transporting SBRs.

Shooting suppressed: I would like to be able to use a couple of Octane suppressors on the gun. One in .45 and one in 9x19.

922r:

Many of the pistols that would make a great base for an SBR are able to be imported simply because the are pistols. The ATF had most recently opined that 922r applies to SBRs. I think a fair reading of the law supports that position (that's not to say it isn't a really stupid law). As such 922r is a factor in the decision. It is a factor in terms of whether compliance parts will be required, their cost, and their availability.

Cost:

I'm not filthy rich and as such cost is always a factor. It is even more of a factor given that I am trying to beat the deadline for the trust changes and would like to get as many NFA items as possible prior to those change. I plan to buy a .30 Cal suppressor and so that wraps up about $1k. I have a couple items I already own I'd like to submit forms on too.

RDS Attachment: I'd like to put an aimpoint micro on it.

Other: Other important factors I'm failing to think of right now.


The contenders and the perceived pros and cons:

Uzi

Pros:

Cost ($600)
Iconic
Ease of SBRing. Just requires a stamp and a barrel swap

Cons:

The design is proven but I'd get a UC 9 which although most reviews seem positive, it is Century.

Its not small or light. It is bigger and heavier than my folding stock AK

MP5 (I'm looking at a POF reverse stretch)

Pros:

Iconic (although a purist would call me out on the reverse stretch)
Proven design
Should shoot well suppressed and comes threaded and with with
Relatively compact

Cons:

Expensive. The base price is $1500 and it requires 922r compliance parts. Mags seem to run $30 for POF and up to $70 for real deal HK mags.
I'm yet to use a MP5 with a red dot set up that I like.
Lacks the ergonomics and modern features of some of the other options.

MPX Gen 2

Pros:

AR style controls
Keymod hand guard
Caliber conversion capability
Ease of mounting a red dot

Cons:

Gas to the face when shooting suppressed seems to be a real issue.
Although its Gen 2, sig has had issues in releasing new guns lately
Mags are absurdly expensive
Its not real cheap at $1300 and about $200 for a stock (but it is less than the MP5)

Uzi Pro

Pros

One of the smallest and lightest options
Mags are reasonably priced
RDS easy to mount

Cons

I haven't found any 922r parts so this may be a total no starter
It might be just about as useful with just a brace
Barrel isn't threaded.

TMP

Pros

Small and light

Cons

Price
Availability
922r parts?
Suppressor compatability(?)

Scorpion

Pros

Affordable at under $800 and $200 for stock and compliance parts
Mags are affordable.
Seems to have less gas in the face than the MPX

Cons

I'd rather have a gen 2 than gen 1
Availability
Trigger is said to be less than stellar

Full Auto Mac

Pros:

Its a real sub gun
Lage slow fire upper makes it a pretty useful tool
Can mount folding stocks and RDS
Can shoot suppressed
Can do a .22LR lage upper

Cons

Price
Finding one for sale that I can get pending in time.
Price


Kriss V

I haven't seen the 9x19 version and haven't given the 45 a hard look but would be interested in hearing input on it

Keep in mind I'm going to build out the 9x19 AR at some point. I have a sub 2000. I have other SBRs in real rifle calibers .

 

[mdThanatos]

What about the Scorpion Carbine that CZ has announced?

Scorpion Carbine

 

[horsemen61]

Out of all of what you listed I would go with the mpx I think it will do what you want the best and I feel like sig will stand behind it their is a reason they named it MPX they are trying to make a better mousetrap than the mp5 and from what I've seen I think they have

 

[BrianBelanger]

The Berretta C X4 Storm is worth considering

In 9 and 40 using Berreta pistol mags. This rifle is very high quality and is my preference over the JR Carbine. The JR Carbine doesn't hold open after the last round. My friend does competition in PPC with it.

http://www.beretta.com/en/cx4-storm/#Main

 

[justin22885]

you forgot the sten, the sterling, the VZ25, the MP38/MP40, and the modern stuff like the hi point carbine, keltec sub-2000 and mech tech carbine upper for 1911s and glocks

having a 9mm rifle with a magazine located anywhere but the grip is dimensionally inefficient, with a grip mounted mag you get the most compact, best balanced solution over any of the rest.. uzi, TMP, mac 11/9, hi point, sub2k, etc.. either of these

 

[USAF_Vet]

Masterpiece Arms has a new designed M-11 9mm that uses Glock mags. They've also still got their base model that takes standard M-11. And SBR conversion kits.

 

[justin22885]

thats the great thing about mac-10s and mac 11s, you can get a magazine well to fit just about any magazine you want and weld it onto the lower

 

[Traffer]

Would a HiPoint 995ts fit in this category? You can get one for UNDER $300. I like economical.

 

[tarosean]

Kriss V

I haven't seen the 9x19 version and haven't given the 45 a hard look but would be interested in hearing input on it

Pro
- No 922R Needed
- Can buy Factory SBR around 1500.00
- Glock mags = relatively cheap and everywhere
- 9 & 45 uppers/lowers will interchange. Not cheap though @ 1000.00 +/- just for the lower assembly

Cons
- pinned barrel so if you do not like the factory 5.5" threaded or 16" non-threaded you will be looking at gunsmith work. (used to be 500 for Kriss to do it, keeps warranty in check though)


I have a 9mm CRB, but honestly only have a few hundred rounds through it. So I cannot give you much info in the form of reliability/ruggedness/etc.

 

[ttarp]

MP5, the iconic outdated Hk design is still probably the best all around PCC out there.

 

[boricua9mm]

I vote MP5. I've had mine for several years now and nothing new has come out that has inspired me to throw cash in its direction over the tried and true roller delayed blowback 9mm. By far, it is the smoothest shooting shoulder fired 9mm I've ever experienced.

The cost isn't cheap, and while I understand that anything over $600 is considered "too expensive" on THR, you can't take the money with you when you die. It has been my experience that you can plan on spending about $2k to get a properly running clone in SBR format.

The red dot sight issue is relevant. There are a few options for low mounted red dots that work well from the cheek weld perspective, but the dot typically winds up on top of the front sight hood. Some have cut away the sight hood to "remedy" this issue, but the thought of that makes me cringe. The iron sights are fantastic, and I've had no trouble making consistent hits on torso-sized steel at 100 yards from the standing position.

Ergos can be addressed in any number of ways. You can choose from many different stock setups: telescopic A3, side-folding B&Ts, fixed A2 types, and AR adapters if you're into that kind of thing. There are many grip frames to choose from that offer different grip styles to suit your liking, including a grip frame that allows for AR grips and trigger guards (again, if that's your preference). The selector can be hard to reach, but you can either run an extended selector lever or an ambidextrou$ Navy pack. I chose the extended selector.

As you've noted, they suppress extremely well. The only thing I don't like about the MP5 is how dirty they get. I'm talking about absolutely filthy. You'll never complain about cleaning an AR ever again.

In my opinion, the HK family is the original modular platform. You can outfit these guns in a dizzying number of ways. If you wind up with one in SBR format, I suggest doing exactly that, as you're pretty much married to it anyways. Might as well be able to keep things interesting.

Mine is usually setup in one of two ways, depending on my mood and needs...

 

[Girodin]

Thanks for the feedback. Boricua9mm I appreciate the feedback on your MP5. What you have said about the RDS is exactly what I have found in my use of them. The RDS is either too high or the low mounts place it on the front sight hood.

I have had a couple high point carbines. They go bang and are reasonably accurate and when I had a couple, were dirt cheap. However, I wasn't really into them. Also they don't really fill the role I am looking at for this gun. They aren't small, they would take enough work to SBR that I don't think the juice would be worth the squeeze. And similarly they would need work to mount a suppressor.

The Sub 2K was suggested. I have one.

I've pretty much narrowed it down to either the POF 5 PK, this:

http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/com...ssories/pof-9mm-k-pistol-detail.html?Itemid=0

or the MPX.

I feel like it is really a decision between the proven track record of the MP5 design and the fact that it is likely the better suppressor host and the MPX's ability to mount a RDS, familiar AR controls, ability to swap calibers, and use certain AR parts. The MP5 is also arguably the "cooler" gun. Certainly the more iconic gun.

The gas to the face issue has me leaning towards the reverse stretch style MP5. That route might also save me the expense of buying another aimpoint micro.

I also would maybe just take the plunge on a full auto mac but my local fun shop that deals in such items doesn't have any in stock and I'm not sure how one really goes about that type of transaction.

 

[horsemen61]

MPX

 

[Girodin]

MPX

Any particular reasoning behind that?

 

[CraigC]

I handled the SIG at the last NRA show and really liked it. However, after watching this video and hearing about all the gas in the face when suppressed, I've pretty much settled on the new Scorpion pistol, to be converted into an SBR.

 

[Girodin]

If gen 2 scorpions were out I'd probably buy that. The only scorpions I can find for sale are at local shops that want too much for one (and they are gen 1). I'm not paying $900+ for a gun that sold for as low as $700. I think the scorpion is a winner and I really like the fact that CZ provided compliance kits. If someone would make an entire US made FCG that improved the trigger pull and did away with the need to swap base plates and followers for 922r compliance it would be great. I don't like having to rely on the right mags for 922r compliance.

I'm leaning toward the reverse stretch MP 5 since a big part of why I actually want one is a smaller gun and to shoot suppressed. I might grap a century Uzi too since they are relatively inexpensive.

 

[Hyrulejedi86]

I'm in the same boat. I'm leaning toward the MKE Z-5rs. I really wanted the MPX but the gas and suppression level concern me until I find somewhere to shoot it for myself. The Z-5rs looks awesome and has very good reviews so far.

Subscribed for interest.

 

[waterhouse]

I've notice a lot of gas in the face with suppressed ARs. I have not noticed much gas with the suppressed MPX.

I shot the MPX and the scorpion and ended up going with the mpx although I liked both.

I've shot real and not real mp5s; while I always wanted one growing up I prefer the mpx due to common AR controls.

I've shot Uzis in the past but also prefer the mpx due to control familiarity.

My choice came down to mpx or scorpion and I simply preferred the feel of the mpx, although it does cost most than you want to spend.


I will say I ordered the stock and filed for the stamp at the same time
And the stamp made it about 3 months before the stock, which is rediculous.

 

[silicosys4]

Of the choices listed, I've only shot a semi Uzi and a select fire Kriss.
The Uzi is an exceptionally soft shooter, but pretty dated in ergonomics compared to some of the other options you've listed, and the Kriss I was able to shoot. Still fun, but not as optics friendly with the charging handle on the top and all..
The Kriss was a soft shooter as well, although in .45, so not really comparable there. I'd imagine the 9mm version would be quiet easy to shoot...The recoil impulse at 1200 rounds per minute was actually pretty manageable for the mag dump I was able to try.
It also feels much better than the Uzi to me, with the much more slender grip, and felt quiet a bit lighter.

 

[Jeff H]

My $.02.

I've considered converting one of my AR-15s to 9mm for a while to capitalize on cheaper ammo and have a fun blasting fun, but every time I go shopping, I realize that the return on investment by switching to 9mm is over 6000 rounds.

I have lots of guns, so 6000 rounds through one gun that is just a blasting/fun gun probably won't happen for a very long time. So far, I've resisted the urge to by a 9mm upper and invested the money in more 223 ammo.

I know you are looking for an SBR and you can do that as easy with 223 as 9mm, but if you ever decide to suppress it, switching to 300blk is really easy on the 223 platform.

 

[kBob]

In your case I might go with a multi caliber AR15 lower and build what you want.

Don't laugh but since you mention money and cheap......how about a hi-point and the after market stock that makes it look Beretta-ish , get the barrel bobbed NFA SBR and threaded and, viola!

IF you want classic and you have PLENTY of money then go with the full sized UZI or MP5.

For a good long while the Uzi was used by the Secret Service with a slightly shortened barrel ( to make the folded model fit a brief case) and was used in the first years of the General Officers escort service besides being used by militaries all over the world. Would you believe the model used by the West German Army would take an external Blank Firing Device? Many of the Belgian made models took a Mauser bayonet that stuck way out with only the butt of the knife attached. "Get back! I have and empty SMG and a toad sticker!" Honestly I think I would rather have kept the knife in hand and used the empty SMG for a combination shield and club.

The MP5 looks cool and got a lot of press when used by the SAS in the Iranian Embassy Raid (they were actually used as semi carbines there BTW) and other go fast sorts. On the other hand the US 1st Rangers did not like their performance on Grenada ( they were issued to 90 gunners and some radio men) and others have complained that in "the field" rather than "on the Streets" that they are lacking in reliability. I used standard models, MP5k, and MP5SD when training with a German "Special" Police Group and rather liked them and have used a buddy's converted (Flemming) HK 94 a bit. Oddly the worst of the HK MP5s I have ever used were the un modified HK 94s. I think all that extra pencil thing barrel to make 16 inches warps with every shot. Accuracy with the 16 inch barreled -94s was abysmal.

Good luck with your choice and paper work.

-kBob

 

[Girodin]

I know you are looking for an SBR and you can do that as easy with 223 as 9mm, but if you ever decide to suppress it, switching to 300blk is really easy on the 223 platform.

I have a 5.56 and 300 blk SBR. I also have an SBR AK so I'm really looking to fill a different niche. Frankly, I'd probably forgo the 300 BLK if I had a do over. However, that is a discussion for a different thread.

As to cost I could get the full auto Mac if I really wanted to so I'm not really constrained to hi points, and as I said I have owned one before and got rid of it.

 

[Girodin]

So I picked up a Kriss in 9x19. When I made the purchase I felt like I was really rolling the dice. There are an inordinate number of negative reviews from the Gen 1 Kriss and many of those stories involved anecdotes of less than stellar customer service. There was also a dearth of information about the Gen 2 kriss and even less about the 9x19. The only real reviews I could find were from the various "professional" reviewers on youtube and they were all done with Kriss personnel on hand with guns they had brought them. That is hardly a recipe for good unbiased reviews of an off the line gun. The Kriss forum seems to be a dead space with very little recent activity.

However, the Kriss intrigued me despite being such an unknown. It looked good on paper. It was US made, mounting optics looked to be a simple proposition and it seemed any mount that worked on an AR would work on the Kriss. SBRing it looked simple enough provided one started with the pistol version. It was threaded from the factory and I couldn't find any negatives about shooting it suppressed. It took glock mags. The real think that appealed to me is it seemed to be one of the most budget friendly guns.

The gun was around $1100-1200. A stock will cost about $80 when the form 1 I submitted after getting it comes back. A scorpion was $780 plus the stock/kit was $250 the cheapest place I could find it in stock. Mags for the scorpion on $20 plus followers and base plates if one needs to buy those. I have a bunch of glock mags and other guns that take glock mags. To get 10 mags for the scorpion I'd be looking at another $200+. The Kriss is threaded 1/2x28 the Scoprion has its own thread pattern on any of the guns that were available (also I'm not wild about how they did the 1/2x28 threads on the guns that will be coming in.) This means I need to buy another adapted for the Scorpion adding to the price. Also I have another gun with a three lug and I think I will set the Kriss up with an adapter. I'm not sure I could even do that with the Scorpion. When I added it all up the Scorpion was just as expensive or more than the Kriss.

 

[rodregier]

Not sure if it fits all of your criteria, but anyway... Aero Survival Rifle.
Easy to change barrel, takes Glock 9mm magazines, PIC rails.

Solid build using modern materials.

http://www.tnwfirearms.com/category-s/1825.htm

 

[tarosean]

There was also a dearth of information about the Gen 2 kriss and even less about the 9x19. The only real reviews I could find were from the various "professional" reviewers on youtube and they were all done with Kriss personnel on hand with guns they had brought them. That is hardly a recipe for good unbiased reviews of an off the line gun. The Kriss forum seems to be a dead space with very little recent activity.

Yeah I know exactly what you mean.... I was somewhat uneasy about being a guinea pig too.

It all worked out though.. Ive shot it a ton more since you first started this thread and It hasnt hiccuped yet.

The only thing that took a little adjustment was where to put my hand on the front of the gun.

oh and congrats.