M2 Carbine
member
Lets say the Makarov will still be functioning when other guns have quit.
Which Makarov type pistol is best?
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Northslope Nimrod
Member
Maks are great!
I bought my Bulgarian for $150....in great shape. Most are going from $170 to $180 locally.
Of course Maks may jam.....BUT....I've put over $1000 rounds through mine...(wolf, Silver Bear)...and I haven't had a jam yet.
Just put a new Pearce grip on it. Looks and feels great!
I bought my Bulgarian for $150....in great shape. Most are going from $170 to $180 locally.
Of course Maks may jam.....BUT....I've put over $1000 rounds through mine...(wolf, Silver Bear)...and I haven't had a jam yet.
Just put a new Pearce grip on it. Looks and feels great!
railroader
Member
My stock hicap mak came with factory russian 12 round mags when I bought it new in 94. Those mags are only so so reliable. Now I also have a factory 10 rounder that works great and a promag that works good but falls out of the gun once and awhile from the recoil. Mark
Hi Cap Makarovs can also work with the 8rd mag which is nice. If you come across a commercial Arsenal Bulgarian Makarov at a good price don't overlook it either. My example was actually more accurate than my East German and had a somewhat better trigger. If you find a Chinese at a good price, snap it up but most likely your best bet and most easy thing to do is to find a military Bulgarian Makarov.
Optical Serenity
Member
I think the Makarov is the pistol I'd get if I had less than $200 to spend on gun + ammo. Its an awesome gun, and my Russian has NEVER jammed either.
ajax
Member
I've noticed several guys saying that certain Maks aren't real Maks. Well if your going to be technical anything that isn't Russian Is a copy no matter how exact or nicely made!!!!
Teakwood
Member
WRONG!ajax said:
A Makarov is a specific design. The true Makarovs were made in Russia, East Germany, Bulgaria and China.
The so-called Polish (P64) and Hungarian (PA63) Makarovs are not Makarovs. They are simply pistols chambered in 9x18.
There is a difference
ajax
Member
Actually Teak YOUR WRONG!!!!!! Who made the Mak first? Anyone who makes it there after is making a copy because Teak they didn't make it first!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sorry about the double post.
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ajax
Member
Actually Teak YOUR WRONG!!!!!! Who made the Mak first? Anyone who makes it there after is making a copy because Teak they didn't make it first!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
alamo
Member
ajax said:
You'd best learn the difference between a cartridge and a design. A .45 Glock and a 1911 aren't the same pistol just because they shoot the same round. That's why a P-64 and a PA-63 aren't a Makarov because they shoot a 9x18 round. It's really quite simple.
ajax
Member
Alamo you best learn the difference between a copy and an original because the last time I checked the Russians made the first one so every one who made one after that made a what? A COPY and that includes the E.Germans the Bugarians and Chinese.
ajax,
The P64 and PA63 pistols aren't even copies of the Mak, strictly speaking. They're roughly similar and chamber the same cartridge--that's about it.
The other pistols being discussed are more than copies, they're the same pistol but made by different manufacturers in different countries. All parts interchange, etc. Saying that they're just copies would be the same as saying that a Winchester M1 Garand is just a Garand copy since it's not made by Springfield Armory.
If the P64 and PA63 pistols qualify as Maks, then there are no Maks, following that reasoning you would have to say that all Maks are actually just Walther copies.
The P64 and PA63 pistols aren't even copies of the Mak, strictly speaking. They're roughly similar and chamber the same cartridge--that's about it.
The other pistols being discussed are more than copies, they're the same pistol but made by different manufacturers in different countries. All parts interchange, etc. Saying that they're just copies would be the same as saying that a Winchester M1 Garand is just a Garand copy since it's not made by Springfield Armory.
If the P64 and PA63 pistols qualify as Maks, then there are no Maks, following that reasoning you would have to say that all Maks are actually just Walther copies.
Alamo you best learn the difference between a copy and an original because the last time I checked the Russians made the first one so every one who made one after that made a what? A COPY and that includes the E.Germans the Bugarians and Chinese.
Ye gods.
So the Russians made the first Makarov. Every subsequent Makarov they made was a copy of the first one, YEAH!
Didn't they actually license the design or something like that, so that other countries could manufacture the gun without having to come up with something similar from scratch? (i.e. a copy) Much the same way the Soviets gave the technology to manufacture SKS's to the Chinese.
I love THR.
jmm
ps. sorry I forgot to answer the poster's question.
what country makes the best Makarov type for the money if I desired that extra bit-o-bang for the buck by going full out 9x18?
I was lucky enough to find the Bulgarian Makarovs when they were still being sold through vendors for less than $150. IMO, those were the best bang for the buck. Well made, even if not well finished, accurate, and as reliable as the design will allow.
Ye gods.
So the Russians made the first Makarov. Every subsequent Makarov they made was a copy of the first one, YEAH!
Didn't they actually license the design or something like that, so that other countries could manufacture the gun without having to come up with something similar from scratch? (i.e. a copy) Much the same way the Soviets gave the technology to manufacture SKS's to the Chinese.
I love THR.
jmm
ps. sorry I forgot to answer the poster's question.
what country makes the best Makarov type for the money if I desired that extra bit-o-bang for the buck by going full out 9x18?
I was lucky enough to find the Bulgarian Makarovs when they were still being sold through vendors for less than $150. IMO, those were the best bang for the buck. Well made, even if not well finished, accurate, and as reliable as the design will allow.
Teakwood
Member
Actually, I am not wrong.
The Makarov was invented by a Russian and the first ones were produced in Russia. The Russians later taught/licensed the East Germans, Chinese and Bulgarians to build the same pistol. That is to say, armories in all four of those countiores built th same pistol, with only slight variations. Parts from one can be used in the other.
The point is that anything else is not a Makarov.
I have 20 Makarovs in my collection. In order to rate them, one has to putr them into separate categories: commercial vs milsurp.
IMHO, the Russian and East German milsurp are the best, with the Bulgarians close behind.
In the commercial category, the Simson-Suhl are probably the best, followed by the Miltex SE, and them the Arsenal.
The Russian IJ70 and the Norinco imports are about the bottom of the barrel. I rate the IJ70 very low because of its very thing finish, although functionally it is generally very good. The Norincos have a pretty bluing, but the underlying machine work and metal polishing is very poor.
I have been told that the Chinese milsurp is very nice, but they are extremely rare and I have never seen one.
The Makarov was invented by a Russian and the first ones were produced in Russia. The Russians later taught/licensed the East Germans, Chinese and Bulgarians to build the same pistol. That is to say, armories in all four of those countiores built th same pistol, with only slight variations. Parts from one can be used in the other.
The point is that anything else is not a Makarov.
I have 20 Makarovs in my collection. In order to rate them, one has to putr them into separate categories: commercial vs milsurp.
IMHO, the Russian and East German milsurp are the best, with the Bulgarians close behind.
In the commercial category, the Simson-Suhl are probably the best, followed by the Miltex SE, and them the Arsenal.
The Russian IJ70 and the Norinco imports are about the bottom of the barrel. I rate the IJ70 very low because of its very thing finish, although functionally it is generally very good. The Norincos have a pretty bluing, but the underlying machine work and metal polishing is very poor.
I have been told that the Chinese milsurp is very nice, but they are extremely rare and I have never seen one.
alamo
Member
JohnKSa said:
Bingo.
Very humby begging your pardon...
That not me talking, that's what Makarov.com says.
However, I agree the Rusky is the original.
I'm not a Makarov expert. I'm just interested. I'm much more knowledgable about CZ-82s and CZ-83s. These great guns are an example of not a true Makarov, but in Makarov caliber, as is the case with the Polish Makarov P-83 (think it's a P-83) which are very Makarov like, but supposedly with a better DA trigger pull due to using a coil spring rather than a leaf spring (so I've read). The FEGs are not so good according to some, and good according to others. The FEGs are another example of not a true Makarov because their parts are not interchangable with true Makarovs. The Polish P-83 and FEG are very similar to a Makarov, but not a Makarov. The P-83 is supposedly better than a Makarov (I've been told).
The above is what Makarov.com and related sites say. I am no expert. I only claim to know a fair amount about CZ-83s, but don't even claim to be an expert on those. I sure like my CZ-83s.
The CZ-82/83 are not even close enough to a Makarov to call them Makarov like. However, I think the CZ-82/83 are better, in my opinion (based on limited experience and much research). I think of the CZ-82/83 as a cross between a Walther and a Browning with Makarov 9x18 chambering. i.e. - the best features of all 3 in one gun.
Except for one thing: the CZ-83 can't be carried de-cocked with saftety on. It's a choice between cocked with safety on, or decocked with saftety off. I wish the CZ-83 could be carried decocked with saftety on like the Walther and Makarov. In this area, the Makarov reigns supreme. It can be carried decocked with saftety on like a Walther or Bersa, but with a downward thumb sweep to put safety off like the Browning and CZ-83. So with regard to the user interface of the saftety, the Mak is better (IMO) than any others. This is HUGELY important to me.
I want to carry with saftety on, decocked, and have the fast ergonomic downward thumb saftety sweep. Only the Makarovs do this. This is the best feature of the Maks, in my opinion.
Why don't Bersa and others copy the Mak style of safety?
I'm no Makarov expert, but Makarov.com defines a true Makarov as being of the same design as the Russian with parts that are interchangable with the Russian. They say the "true Makarovs" are those with parts that are interchangable with other "true Makarovs" like the Rusky.ajax said:
That not me talking, that's what Makarov.com says.
However, I agree the Rusky is the original.
I'm not a Makarov expert. I'm just interested. I'm much more knowledgable about CZ-82s and CZ-83s. These great guns are an example of not a true Makarov, but in Makarov caliber, as is the case with the Polish Makarov P-83 (think it's a P-83) which are very Makarov like, but supposedly with a better DA trigger pull due to using a coil spring rather than a leaf spring (so I've read). The FEGs are not so good according to some, and good according to others. The FEGs are another example of not a true Makarov because their parts are not interchangable with true Makarovs. The Polish P-83 and FEG are very similar to a Makarov, but not a Makarov. The P-83 is supposedly better than a Makarov (I've been told).
The above is what Makarov.com and related sites say. I am no expert. I only claim to know a fair amount about CZ-83s, but don't even claim to be an expert on those. I sure like my CZ-83s.
The CZ-82/83 are not even close enough to a Makarov to call them Makarov like. However, I think the CZ-82/83 are better, in my opinion (based on limited experience and much research). I think of the CZ-82/83 as a cross between a Walther and a Browning with Makarov 9x18 chambering. i.e. - the best features of all 3 in one gun.
Except for one thing: the CZ-83 can't be carried de-cocked with saftety on. It's a choice between cocked with safety on, or decocked with saftety off. I wish the CZ-83 could be carried decocked with saftety on like the Walther and Makarov. In this area, the Makarov reigns supreme. It can be carried decocked with saftety on like a Walther or Bersa, but with a downward thumb sweep to put safety off like the Browning and CZ-83. So with regard to the user interface of the saftety, the Mak is better (IMO) than any others. This is HUGELY important to me.
I want to carry with saftety on, decocked, and have the fast ergonomic downward thumb saftety sweep. Only the Makarovs do this. This is the best feature of the Maks, in my opinion.
Why don't Bersa and others copy the Mak style of safety?
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alamo
Member
Pistols that use the 9x18 round or 9mm Makarov are often erroneously called Makarovs. The CZ-82/83 and PA-63 are not Makarovs. The parts of EG, Bulgarian and Russian Makarovs are interchangeable. It is the same pistol, just manufactured under license by former eastern bloc countries. Same thing as Winchester or International Harvester making the Springfield M1 Garand rifle. Just the same as WWII Colt, Remington, Ithaca, etc. 1911A1 .45 pistols.
varoadking
Member
Drifting Fate said:
I like my Bulgarian Mak and carry it often, and it does shoot well, but if your Mak outshot your P7M8, at least 1 of 3 things is going on:
1. Your P7M8 is broken
2. You were shooting 9x18 in your P7M8
3. You were standing 10 yards closer to your target when you shot the Mak.
Texfire
Member
+1 for the CZ-82/83.
Okay it's not a Makarov, but a Iron Curtain milsurp chambered in Makarov and I don't care. It's the only option for a southpaw in 9x18 and I love mine. Good shooting straight-blowback pistol, cocked and locked, with a sweet single-action trigger, and 12+1 rounds of 9x18 Mak is nothing to sneeze at.
Tex
Okay it's not a Makarov, but a Iron Curtain milsurp chambered in Makarov and I don't care. It's the only option for a southpaw in 9x18 and I love mine. Good shooting straight-blowback pistol, cocked and locked, with a sweet single-action trigger, and 12+1 rounds of 9x18 Mak is nothing to sneeze at.
Tex
While no Makarov can be considered "good" I would vote for the Bulgarian as the best deal as well. Maks are so out dated it aint funny. They are heavy, ugly, uncomfortable, have lousy triggers and sights and fire a stupid caliber that will be extinct in the near future.
They are reliable which along with being inexpensive are the only two things they really have going for them. Some people claim to get decent accuracy out of them but I would be willing to bet that if you took 100 Bersas and a 100 Maks and shot them side by side, more Bersas would be accurate than Maks. They are a simliar design but the Bersas have much better triggers and sights and everyone knows those are the most important two factors to accuracy. If you gave the Maks trigger jobs and better sights and a grips that actually fit the hand, they would be pretty darn good. Some people do this but they spend more money in the long run than if they had just bought a Kahr K-9 which would beat a Mak in every catagory. As they come Maks are servicable and that is about it. As they come Bersas are about as good as they get. You don't need to do anything to a Bersa to get it to shoot well and feel good in the hand.
They are reliable which along with being inexpensive are the only two things they really have going for them. Some people claim to get decent accuracy out of them but I would be willing to bet that if you took 100 Bersas and a 100 Maks and shot them side by side, more Bersas would be accurate than Maks. They are a simliar design but the Bersas have much better triggers and sights and everyone knows those are the most important two factors to accuracy. If you gave the Maks trigger jobs and better sights and a grips that actually fit the hand, they would be pretty darn good. Some people do this but they spend more money in the long run than if they had just bought a Kahr K-9 which would beat a Mak in every catagory. As they come Maks are servicable and that is about it. As they come Bersas are about as good as they get. You don't need to do anything to a Bersa to get it to shoot well and feel good in the hand.
alamo
Member
I'll put my EG Mak or Bulgarian up against a Bersa anytime. The trigger on my EG Mak is as perfect as they come. Part of an afternoon with a dremel made the Bulgarian trigger almost as good. Bersas are fine pistols but Makarovs beat them in most categories.
The_Shootist
Member
Go Bulgy!
Maybe the EG Maks have better looks/triggers cosmetically, but i bet they aren't worth the extra $ 150 or so, compared to a Bulgy.
Mine has a nice deep blue fininish with no flaws and goes bang everytime. Retested that thesis today with about 200 rds of Silver bear and have the bruise on my right hand web to prove it
This is after not cleaning it for the previous 150 rounds either!
Maybe the EG Maks have better looks/triggers cosmetically, but i bet they aren't worth the extra $ 150 or so, compared to a Bulgy.
Mine has a nice deep blue fininish with no flaws and goes bang everytime. Retested that thesis today with about 200 rds of Silver bear and have the bruise on my right hand web to prove it
This is after not cleaning it for the previous 150 rounds either!
The_Shootist
Member
By The Way
Went with the Mak after my Bersa self destructed at the range one day. 1200 rounds had gone through it in previous range sessions, then that day the trigger mechanism broke. So much for Bersa reliability. Tossed it in the safe and haven't even bothered to look into getting it fixed. Whats the point? What else could eventually break? Especially when I really need it?
Bought the Mak, never looked back. The all steel simple construction simply inspires confidence - unlike the Bersa's kinda cheesy feel to it. You just feel the Mak could take some hard shooting and just keep going.
My Bulgy has NEVER jammed/FTF/FTF and thats from using Hornady/Wolf/Silver Bear ammo (carry and shoot the Silver Bear 115 gr). Despite the sights, i can group 3-5 shots quickly into about 3", which should be good enough as a SD pistol.
200 rounds of Silver Bear went downrange today and haven't cleaned it - I expect to put another 200 downrange tommorrow with no problems - THEN I'll clean it :>
Went with the Mak after my Bersa self destructed at the range one day. 1200 rounds had gone through it in previous range sessions, then that day the trigger mechanism broke. So much for Bersa reliability. Tossed it in the safe and haven't even bothered to look into getting it fixed. Whats the point? What else could eventually break? Especially when I really need it?
Bought the Mak, never looked back. The all steel simple construction simply inspires confidence - unlike the Bersa's kinda cheesy feel to it. You just feel the Mak could take some hard shooting and just keep going.
My Bulgy has NEVER jammed/FTF/FTF and thats from using Hornady/Wolf/Silver Bear ammo (carry and shoot the Silver Bear 115 gr). Despite the sights, i can group 3-5 shots quickly into about 3", which should be good enough as a SD pistol.
200 rounds of Silver Bear went downrange today and haven't cleaned it - I expect to put another 200 downrange tommorrow with no problems - THEN I'll clean it :>
varoadking
Member
I'll take a Mak over a Bersa every day of the week...
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