Which red dot will fail first?

[walter34payton2002]

You better be careful there Blackrock. If you ever need it for defensive use at home, that Barska will KNOW that the bad guy is a threat, and the Barska will become afraid and not be able to stay aimed. It will probably turn off out of fear.

Seriously though. I am not naive or ignorant. I know that there are some optics that aren't physically up to the task of handling recoil and any stress. That they'll break or drift off point of aim. But I also know that there are a lot that do quite well. Are some of these less expensive sights tough enough to handle belly crawls across a 100 yard field getting all banged around? Probably not. Then again, I don't plain on using the gun while doing belly crawls. But if a person really is into having fun with carbine classes, crawling around in defensive training classes, and similar; then they have every cause to buy a much sturdier form of sights. I spent too many years in that type of training. However; I did it strictly with iron sights. No red-dot type optics. But for home defense, range use, 100-150 yard prairie dog shooting, etc... I don't need the $500 red-dot/holo type sight. I don't mind replacing a $3 battery a few times a year. I can satisfy my requirements with a decent <$100 sight. But those who are really into the carbine training, tactical rifle training, blackwater type training classes; or because they somehow believe they and their rifle are going to be used in those environments; definitely go out and buy the Aimpoint or EOTech. You probably need it. Hell; buy it simply because you want it. But I'm sure that most people don't have those needs. Buy it simply because you want it is fine. But I think it's wrong to tell people that if they have any intention of using their AR for home defense, then they and their family's life requires them to buy the EOTech or Aimpoint and that they are risking their lives if they buy most of the less expensive brands.

Ok, my last post I posted before your last one was up so I didn't see it yet. I think we are in agreement. Like I say I highly recommend the Bushnell Holosight. Great value and essentially an EOTech without the armor.

 

[christcorp]

Which ones and why? How do they compare to the industry standard sights? I am assuming you have extensive experience with either EOTech, Aimpoint, Trijicon, or other top of the line "red dot" so as to compare. Tell us why the less than $100 red dots are "just as good as." I always love when people say that. Usually it is guys saying their Olympic Arms is just as good as Colt, Noveske, BCM, etc, then when you explain to them the specs and the first thing they say is "well who needs that." Classic.

walter; you've made it quite clear what you consider to be important. For your own peace of mind, you demand your Mil-Spec and what you call industry standard. And you are totally free to do so. You don't understand analogies; and you take this whole discussion literal. There is absolutely nothing that anyone can or will say that will make you admit that not everyone has the same needs or whats as you. You basically believe that unless you're ONLY using the rifle to punch holes in paper; and perhaps an occasional prairie dog, then you have to use one of your preferred sights, or you are putting yourself at risk. There's no discussing with you. You don't want to discuss. You simply want to believe that your level of threat is the same for everyone. Have at it. Enjoy your life.

For the others, they know. They know how they use their rifles/pistols. They've experienced different sights/optics. They know what experiences they've had and what they can trust, and for what purposes. They don't need someone to sell them the idea that if it isn't a PMag, and EOTech, and 100% mil-spec gun, that their gun shouldn't be used for anything other than punching holes in paper.

Every weapon is different. Every person is different. Every use and need is different. You can make blanket statements about guns, optics, sights, magazines, etc... all you want. But if a person has had their Olympic arms for quite a few years; has put 10,000+ rounds of ammo through it, hasn't had any problems hitting their target with their mueller or A1optic sight, etc... I'm so glad that you're here to make sure that they don't "Accidentally" feel confident in using this rifle for home defense. Hopefully they'll heed your warning and leave the gun under the bed or wherever it is, and grab a different weapon. Because their false sense of security is definitely going to let them down and probably get them killed. Just like the Colt owner that has a timing problem. They should know deep down inside, that this is just a minor convenience. That if they ever REALLY NEED their colt for home defense; she'll be there for them. Timing issue or not. It's your BLANKET STATEMENTS which truly are "Classic". I love listening to the mil-spec crowd that quote "THE CHART". I love how they will argue of how they have to have that 1:7 twist (Even though they never shoot 75+ grain match ammo. Have their lives depend on the 4150 instead of 4140 steel barrel. (Even though they probably shoot less than 5000 rounds a year. And you can't forget the m-16 vs ar15 BCG. Sorry Walt; but I've been listening to you for 30 years. Just enjoy your rifle and your life. There hasn't been one person who ever said you shouldn't buy the optics that you want. Yet; you are very quick to tell others not to buy what they have.

 

[christcorp]

And I apologize too, because my last post was after YOUR last post, before you saw my PREVIOUS post, etc...

I think we're in agreement. At least as far as we're going to go.

 

[ndh87]

cheap scopes are cheap for a reason, buy something good like an aimpoint.

 

[christcorp]

cheap scopes are cheap for a reason, buy something good like an aimpoint.

IF that's what you "NEED". That's what it's all about. And "Cheap" is a relative term. Some base the word simply by the dollar amount. Some base it on the percentage of the rifle. I.e. If the rifle cost $1000, some think a $500 red-dot (Half the price of the rifle) is too much. Some think if the price is under $100, that it's cheap. Some think that's a decent price.

Most people who have made it up to owning an "AR15", probably have some experience with other rifles and scopes. They know what's been reliable and dependable. But it all depends on what you're going to do with it. "MOST PEOPLE", use their AR punching holes in paper, and possibly home defense. My contention is that you don't need a $500+ EOTech or Aimpoint for that. You just don't. You may "WANT" it; and you are definitely free to buy whatever you want. I probably own more things I "WANT" compared to what I "NEED". Including the AR-15 and most of my guns. Now; if you're into competition shooting, marksman, taking tactical or carbine classes, using the weapon in an environment where you think you're going to be crawling around with it, etc... Then a more "Durable" sight is probably in order; such as an aimpoint or EOTech.

But straight up; making a blanket statement that "Cheap scopes are cheap for a reason, buy something good like an aimpoint" is totally WRONG. And that's probably the main point many in this thread were trying to get across. There's a time, to every purpose, under heaven. Once you throw out the "WANT - Emotional" factor; and can determine what you "NEED"; based on what you determine the uses are and such; then YOU can determine which sighting device is the best for you. Some people can't do that. It's simply a WANT issue; and that is cool too. As long as you don't try and push your WANT onto people who have a NEED, and that need isn't the same as yours.

For home defense, punching paper at the range, possibly taking down the prairie dog or varmint in your area, etc... You don't NEED a $500+ red-dot type sight. There are plenty at the $100 and less, like Mueller, A1optic, and some others, that will physically be sound; stay on your rifle; and stay sighted in. These will work fine. A $500+ aimpoint or EOTech is NOT ALWAYS the answer to what a person needs to buy. Not for their purposes.

 

[slzy]

How water and fog resistant are these things?

 

[walter34payton2002]

How water and fog resistant are these things?

It depends on the model. I know that EOTech is fogproof, waterproof, shock proof, and can withstand extreme temps. Each one is tested before sold (1600 g force/ in 1 millisecond). They are typically waterproof from 10 ft to 66 ft, depending on the model. They average about 33 feet. As far as my experience, they don't fog internally ever because they are nitrogen filled, but if you breathe on the outer glass it can get fogged. It is just the way it is there is no way around that. They clear up very fast though and with a red dot breathing on it shouldn't be an issue because it is mounted further down rail.

A couple things to keep in mind- If it rains you will be good to go with an EOTech. If you drop it you are gtg. If you leave it on overnight you are gtg. If you get a shattered glass or an obstruction anywhere on the glass, but there is some clear part, you are gtg- maintains complete zero and function no parallax. If you can see the dot, it is on point of aim, you are gtg. I also choose EOTech because the field of view is better with the square glass.

Aimpoint is a good choice for other reasons, but the advantage with EOTech is the holographic technology. Red dots cannot do what holograph can, but the price you pay is battery life. Aimpoint 50,000, EOTech about 1000 with lithium. Aimpoints are built like tanks, but so are EOTechs. I think it is a matter of preference. Trijicon offers battery free in most of theirs. EOTech gives off no light signature at all even to night vision. There are more reasons why I buy once, but these are some to add to what we already said.

 

[Maverick223]

Well put, christcorp.

 

[MCMXI]

But straight up; making a blanket statement that "Cheap scopes are cheap for a reason, buy something good like an aimpoint" is totally WRONG. And that's probably the main point many in this thread were trying to get across. There's a time, to every purpose, under heaven. Once you throw out the "WANT - Emotional" factor; and can determine what you "NEED"; based on what you determine the uses are and such; then YOU can determine which sighting device is the best for you. Some people can't do that. It's simply a WANT issue; and that is cool too. As long as you don't try and push your WANT onto people who have a NEED, and that need isn't the same as yours.

Very well put but I think it's fair to say that "cheap scopes are cheap for a reason". If you buy a $100 red dot, don't try to convince others that it's just as good as a $700 red dot. It may be perfectly adequate for your intended use and that should be all that you need to say on the matter.

I'm going to order a red dot today if I buy from Midway or tomorrow if I buy from LaRue. I have to consider that I don't want to buy multiple red dot sights and will be moving one between an AR15 and Vz.58 for matches and home defense, and an M1A Scout and Marlin 1895 for hunting. Moving between rifles will involve lots of adjustment in windage and elevation, the ability to consistently return to zero after switching between the rifles and a considerable amount of recoil on the Marlin. I very much doubt that a $100 red dot will do it for me.

 

[Maverick223]

1858, I am not well versed in Red-Dot optics (in the past they haven't worked well with my astigmatism), but I am strongly considering trying a Trijicon RMR with dual illumination for its lightweight and excellent battery life (tritium lasts what...15yrs?). This might be worth a look for you as well.

 

[MCMXI]

1858, I am not well versed in Red-Dot optics (in the past they haven't worked well with my astigmatism), but I am strongly considering trying a Trijicon RMR with dual illumination for its lightweight and excellent battery life (tritium lasts what...15yrs?). This might be worth a look for you as well.

Thanks for the tip but it doesn't look robust enough to me. I need something that could hold up if I take a fall while hunting or shooting in matches. The ACOG is well proven but red dots like the EOTech don't inspire confidence. I'm not basing this on any experience, data or science ... merely packaging. I'm still in the research phase but need to move on this if I buy from Midway. $50 coupon expires tonight.

 

[Maverick223]

Well RMR stands for "Ruggedized Miniature Reflex", but I have no hands on experience with one so I don't know how true that statement is. I can say that the little booger is pretty darn costly...pound for pound I think gold might be cheaper.

 

[BrocLuno]

Well I've been looking into Chinese made optics because there is so much coming out that country. Some of it made to a marketers demand for wholesale pricing and some made for a purpose. One company that I have looked at a lot and have a working relationship with is SunClear. They make about three classes of optics.

Top class is built for their military and sold around the world to LE and Mil folks. But, as Walter ... says, it ain't cheap. Maybe $300 wholesale in lots of 1000. So the final street price here would be $450 and it does not use holographic imaging - it uses conventional curved glass. It is armored and recoil tested to 1000 Gs'. It has battery life measured in months, not days, but it won't run for a year like some of ours. For magnified, they offer first focal plane with mil-dot and multi-layer hard coating. But you are going to spend the same as you would for a good Burris or something, so what's the point?

By the way, Burris makes an armored mount that will take a Bushnell red dot and protect it. Don't know why Bushy didn't do that?

Grade two is good useful hunting glass and again it's tested for recoil, fogging, etc. They have prices in the $200 range for lots of 1000. They will sell on the streets here for $300 to $500 depending on magnification and other features. For that kind of money you have many options.

Bottom grade is Wally World stuff. It's true that they do not test every piece, except in tier one. QA/QC costs money. You do it by random sampling when you are at the bottom of the pile. Would I buy their scopes in Calif - maybe, but probably not unless I wanted a specific feature. Why? Because in America we have a lot of choices Other countries are not so lucky Would I worry if I was in the Andes and I had one of these scopes with LE/Mil-Spec build - no. If that's what was available I'd use it.

Who are these folks, Vector Optics. You can see their stuff on eBay and OpticPlanet, etc. Anything over $300 is usually pretty good and their best is right up there. If you have to face the Chinese Army some day, they will be looking at you through this gear. I would not be betting on their scopes failing.

 

[TexasPatriot.308]

the cheapest one. you get what you pay for.

 

[walter34payton2002]

Broc...Good info and nice write-up. As far as why Bushy didn't provide the armor it's because they own EOTech (or vice-versa I don't remember) and want you to buy EOTech if you want the armored version. The EOTech armor shells you can buy won't even work with the Bushy, but the technology is the same.

 

[Stevie-Ray]

I'd like to know what ones in that range are nice - I'd like to put one back on my vz-58 since my EOTech went bye bye due to a bad month of finances, and can't afford something that expensive again.

Burris Fast-Fire. 200 bucks and high-rated. Primary Arms stuff as has been stated have also been well-received. The Pentax on my PLR-16 is pretty nice for the 60 or so bucks I spent for it. And the 30 dollar Tasco on my GSG has been perfect for many hundreds of rounds. (Thank God for .22s) I'm one that's been lucky with cheap optics, including a big one on my FAL.

 

[joed]

Cheap stuff usually gets replaced and some folks are determined to learn the hard way.

Amen. I learned that lesson on the second course.

 

[BrocLuno]

By the way, if you want to try cheap glass or red dots - try ones made for spring powered air guns. They have vicious reverse recoil and will break scopes ASAP. There is one made for air guns called TechForce. I have a TF-90 and it will not break. It's only used on a 22 WRM, but it seems to be hell for strong. Just a thought for you budget guys

 

[armoredman]

I may have to go with Bushnell as I simply cannot afford a top quality red dot any more. For those who say I should wait, sorry, waiting may make it worse, not better.
That Bushnell TRS25 looks like a winner to me, for light/casual use and the ultrarare 1/100000 event I might need a rifle for defense. Couldn't find the Buhsnell holosight/EOTech clone anywhere...
But hopefully this will work.