shotgunner
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- Feb 19, 2005
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Which type of steel stays the sharpest for the longest period of time?
Which steel stays the sharpest?
- Thread starter shotgunner
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Hmm...generally the steels that stay the sharpest for the longest period of time are the ones that are also the most difficult to resharpen. So its all good and fine when a blade and hold an edge but I want to be able to have good edge retention and ease of sharpening. That said, two steels which stand out to me as holding an edge for quite a while are D2 and L6.
D2 does the trick but can rust easily. I would also suggest S30V. It gets REALLY sharp and is pretty good about holding that edge. It does best when "touched-up" once a week or so(with daily usage). It WILL rust, but not nearly like the high carbon steel's. It really just stains, in my experience.
edited to add: S30v stays SHARP for a long time, it stays razor sharp with touch-ups
edited to add: S30v stays SHARP for a long time, it stays razor sharp with touch-ups
L6 isn't commonly used because of it's difficulty in grinding and subsequent sharpening, but it holds an edge longer than about anything out there.
Of the "commonly" available steel used in production knives, S30V, VG10, and Hitachi Blue Super are some of the best edge holding steels.
Of the "commonly" available steel used in production knives, S30V, VG10, and Hitachi Blue Super are some of the best edge holding steels.
Kingcreek
Member
and let us emphasize the importance of proper heat tempering...
I like D2, S30V(420V), and any properly tempered high-carbon blade. Love my hand-forged Roselli (finnland) and my granddad's 100 yr old Marble's Ideal.
I like D2, S30V(420V), and any properly tempered high-carbon blade. Love my hand-forged Roselli (finnland) and my granddad's 100 yr old Marble's Ideal.
Don Gwinn
Moderator Emeritus
If you're asking about my Maxx, Shirley, yes, it's still shaving sharp and I haven't touched it with stone or strop yet. It has, however, touched me a couple of times.
She's a little on the thirsty side, but I love her.
However, I'm carrying the Spydie Native today. That knife just refuses to be replaced.
She's a little on the thirsty side, but I love her.
However, I'm carrying the Spydie Native today. That knife just refuses to be replaced.
Jalexander
Member
In absolute terms, I seem to recall that S30V is about the best for edge-retention, impact-resistance, et cetera. Practically speaking, though, this is a highly subjective question. For instance, lots of folks swear by ATS-34 and 154CM, but I can't stand either one. On the other hand, other people (such as yours truly) prefer the carbon steels such as 1084, 52100, and 01. I also like M2, as I have a Benchmade 710HSSR that cuts like nobody's business.
If you really want to know, ask a metallurgist or a bladesmith. Where's mete when you need him?
James
If you really want to know, ask a metallurgist or a bladesmith. Where's mete when you need him?
James
Zeke/PA
Member
I prefer the carbon steels, D-2 especially.
Properly heat treated, it has a high abrasion resistance and because of it's high Chromium content it is somewhat rust retardent.
This particular steel has solved many problems in the toolroom over the years and I have made several knives from it.
Respectfully ,Zeke
Properly heat treated, it has a high abrasion resistance and because of it's high Chromium content it is somewhat rust retardent.
This particular steel has solved many problems in the toolroom over the years and I have made several knives from it.
Respectfully ,Zeke
Don Gwinn
Moderator Emeritus
"Somewhat" is a good choice of words. In this case, it means "not very." 
But yes, D2 will hold a scary edge for a long time. I'm enjoying it.
But yes, D2 will hold a scary edge for a long time. I'm enjoying it.
The problem with asking a metallurgist is that the answer you get will be based on theoretical knowledge about the theoretical properties of the material. While often correct they can also often be wrong about an applicaton like edgeholding in knives where heat treat, quench, edge geometry, etc. play significant roles. Worse some materials that have great theoretical properties for edgeholding perform badly when everything is done correctly. Look at ceramic. Great theoretical edgeholding properties, just marvelous, but when applied to a normal knife's abuse edge chipping and flaking quickly degrade the edge.
The problem with asking a blacksmith is that they know exactly what materials they've worked with will do, but if they don't have direct experience with it then they can't, and won't, tell you about the materials they haven't worked with.
What do you do? Read. Work up a consistant test to allow you to evaluate the performance or read someone's information that does.
Or do what I do. Use it as an excuse to buy another knife in the name of science
The problem with asking a blacksmith is that they know exactly what materials they've worked with will do, but if they don't have direct experience with it then they can't, and won't, tell you about the materials they haven't worked with.
What do you do? Read. Work up a consistant test to allow you to evaluate the performance or read someone's information that does.
Or do what I do. Use it as an excuse to buy another knife in the name of science
damascus
I perfer damascus blades, although prices can be quite high I have not found there equal, when made by some one who know how to do it correctly. And when I say correctly I mean they are confident in doing a drop point test with the finished product.
I perfer damascus blades, although prices can be quite high I have not found there equal, when made by some one who know how to do it correctly. And when I say correctly I mean they are confident in doing a drop point test with the finished product.
Zeke/PA
Member
I will address both Don Gwinn and hso in this missive, no flaming intended.
D-2 is a high Carbon , High Chrominum, World War 1 era die steel.
It is, because of it's high Chromium content rust resistant to a degree approaching that of the 400 Series of stainless steel.
As a matter of fact, D-2 being air hardening, and the 400 series martinsitic stainless steels , are similiar enough that they can be HARDENED and TEMPERED side by side in the oven.
I did extensive reasearch work with a local company that wanted to break into the cutlery line.
D-2 came out smelling like a rose in the tests but the company chose to use 154-CM(ATS-34) in their blades because of it's high tensile strength and its resistance to corrosion(housewife, dishwasher type).
Getting back to D-2.
There is nothing, and I repeat, nothing that will test the edge holding ability
of a cutting instrument more than PAPER namley cardboard.
This is because, paper, being mostly recycled has a high insidence of stuff in it , mainly glass.
In my toolmaking days(now retired) I have had to construct tooling to do a variety of things. Where paper was involved, D-2 was the material of choice.
Try this.
Slice thru the end of a cardboard box repetedly and you will soon feel your knife getting dull.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I think that D-2 blades are available only from custom makers.
Just a wee bit of care will keep any Carbon steel blade rust free.
Respectfully, Zeke
D-2 is a high Carbon , High Chrominum, World War 1 era die steel.
It is, because of it's high Chromium content rust resistant to a degree approaching that of the 400 Series of stainless steel.
As a matter of fact, D-2 being air hardening, and the 400 series martinsitic stainless steels , are similiar enough that they can be HARDENED and TEMPERED side by side in the oven.
I did extensive reasearch work with a local company that wanted to break into the cutlery line.
D-2 came out smelling like a rose in the tests but the company chose to use 154-CM(ATS-34) in their blades because of it's high tensile strength and its resistance to corrosion(housewife, dishwasher type).
Getting back to D-2.
There is nothing, and I repeat, nothing that will test the edge holding ability
of a cutting instrument more than PAPER namley cardboard.
This is because, paper, being mostly recycled has a high insidence of stuff in it , mainly glass.
In my toolmaking days(now retired) I have had to construct tooling to do a variety of things. Where paper was involved, D-2 was the material of choice.
Try this.
Slice thru the end of a cardboard box repetedly and you will soon feel your knife getting dull.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I think that D-2 blades are available only from custom makers.
Just a wee bit of care will keep any Carbon steel blade rust free.
Respectfully, Zeke
Zeke,
I think hso already answered what you're saying- he didn't say D2 wasn't capable of a good edge with retention qualities, just that there were "better" steels out there- better being dependent on treat, edge
geometry, etc.
At the top of the quality spectrum- much like velocity increases at the top of the envelope- you have to consider cost vs. increase potential. I do agree with you that D2 is a good steel, but hso has forgotten more than I've ever known about knives and steel.
John
PS- hey, Don- looks like I'm going to work with a guy forging his own blades, in the area...
I think hso already answered what you're saying- he didn't say D2 wasn't capable of a good edge with retention qualities, just that there were "better" steels out there- better being dependent on treat, edge
geometry, etc.
At the top of the quality spectrum- much like velocity increases at the top of the envelope- you have to consider cost vs. increase potential. I do agree with you that D2 is a good steel, but hso has forgotten more than I've ever known about knives and steel.
John
PS- hey, Don- looks like I'm going to work with a guy forging his own blades, in the area...
BobCat
Member
svtruth
Member
Sharp Steel
A man named David Boye makes knives with "dendritic, cobalt-carbide" steel.
Very sharp, don't rust, nonmagnetic and sharpen easily. They will cut a lot of Kevlar or Spectra line on boats.
My daily carry knife is a stainless Gerber; 3" sheepfoot,kept pretty sharp, 11/4" drop point sharpened, but used fro horrible stuff, cutting wire etc., and a barlow kept nearly shaving sharp and saved for when I need sharp! Right here, right now.
A man named David Boye makes knives with "dendritic, cobalt-carbide" steel.
Very sharp, don't rust, nonmagnetic and sharpen easily. They will cut a lot of Kevlar or Spectra line on boats.
My daily carry knife is a stainless Gerber; 3" sheepfoot,kept pretty sharp, 11/4" drop point sharpened, but used fro horrible stuff, cutting wire etc., and a barlow kept nearly shaving sharp and saved for when I need sharp! Right here, right now.
Don Gwinn
Moderator Emeritus
I can only address my own experience with a D2 blade, Zeke, and my experience was that rust began with little provocation when I was doing what I considered pretty careful oiling (I do much better now.)
Compared to other "tool" steels, D2 may be relatively rust resistant, but compared to the broad spectrum of "stainless" and everything else available, I think the average user is going to find it harder to care for than a lot of the "stainless" available. I'm not ragging on D2, I'm a believer. But I'm also not really addressing a tool and die machinist, so the shoe probably doesn't fit.
FWIW, I would say about the same about ATS-34/154CM, for example, and that lacks D2's awesome edge-holding.
Compared to other "tool" steels, D2 may be relatively rust resistant, but compared to the broad spectrum of "stainless" and everything else available, I think the average user is going to find it harder to care for than a lot of the "stainless" available. I'm not ragging on D2, I'm a believer. But I'm also not really addressing a tool and die machinist, so the shoe probably doesn't fit.
FWIW, I would say about the same about ATS-34/154CM, for example, and that lacks D2's awesome edge-holding.
Burt Blade
Member
- Joined
- Apr 29, 2004
- Messages
- 477
I make knives as a hobby. A friend of mine does it for a living. (Raymond C. Johnson II, Melbourne Florida)
Suitable hardening and tempering, edge geometry, and proper sharpening technique: These tend to be vastly more important than the particular alloy used, except in custom blades by experts, or in factory blades where experts control production. But once you find a maker that understands modern alloys, the results are like something from a fantasy novel.
Well, except for the ethereal blue glow when Orcs or Nazgul approach. We are still working on that one. And when we figure it out, imagine how it would look as a night sight addition on your 1911.
Assuming you have orcs or Nazgul in your neighborhood, of course.
Suitable hardening and tempering, edge geometry, and proper sharpening technique: These tend to be vastly more important than the particular alloy used, except in custom blades by experts, or in factory blades where experts control production. But once you find a maker that understands modern alloys, the results are like something from a fantasy novel.
Well, except for the ethereal blue glow when Orcs or Nazgul approach. We are still working on that one. And when we figure it out, imagine how it would look as a night sight addition on your 1911.
Assuming you have orcs or Nazgul in your neighborhood, of course.
GARY SMITH
Member
- Joined
- Dec 6, 2004
- Messages
- 10
Heres some O1 steel being hardened in an knife oven. It holds an edge I think better than D2 with the right heat treating after hardening.
Sir Aardvark
Member
In my experience, I have had great luck with the durability of D2 and M2 steels. They hold an edge for a long time and are available and affordable.
The knives I have used with these blades were Benchmades, and they never failed to perform.
My only problem with the M2 steel was that it would rust quite readily as it is not stainless and has very little chrome in it. Not a good knife for a wet enviroment, for sure.
I have not had any rusting issues with my D2 steel knife yet, but Benchmade put a special black coating on it to make it more durable. If I remember correctly D2 steel has a chrome content of around 11-12%, barely making it into the "stainless" steel category.
Steels such as ATS-34 and 154CM have about 14% chrome while 440V has about 17.5% chrome, making them have excellent stainless properties, but giving up a bit of toughness in the exchange.
The knives I have used with these blades were Benchmades, and they never failed to perform.
My only problem with the M2 steel was that it would rust quite readily as it is not stainless and has very little chrome in it. Not a good knife for a wet enviroment, for sure.
I have not had any rusting issues with my D2 steel knife yet, but Benchmade put a special black coating on it to make it more durable. If I remember correctly D2 steel has a chrome content of around 11-12%, barely making it into the "stainless" steel category.
Steels such as ATS-34 and 154CM have about 14% chrome while 440V has about 17.5% chrome, making them have excellent stainless properties, but giving up a bit of toughness in the exchange.
front leaf spring from a 1970's era Mack truck once ground to shape, and sharpened, that piece of steel yielded some of the most amazingly durable edges i have ever used. two or three weeks of daily construction use without touchup. Hard as glass, tough too.
Zeke,
I actually like D2 because when made into knife blades it takes and holds an edge well. The reason I didn't champion it was that I simply forgot it in the list of "newer" steels. Most custom makers and almost all production companies forgot about it until it's "rediscovery" in the past couple of years and growing re-acceptance. Several good knifemakers and Kabar are using it (I suspect Kabar's using it because Bob Dozier uses it and wouldn't let them use a "lesser" steel in the knives of his design they're making).
In my experience with field knives is that a good L6 blade will run rings around a good D2 blade, but the guys who make them tell me it's a pain to work and a pain to heat treat compared to D2 so it may not be worth it to more reasonable folks. Would L6 make a good production knife steel then? No way! D2's a much better choice if you were wanting to make knives of excellent quality cause you can't make an L6 knife for nearly the price of a good D2.
I actually like D2 because when made into knife blades it takes and holds an edge well. The reason I didn't champion it was that I simply forgot it in the list of "newer" steels. Most custom makers and almost all production companies forgot about it until it's "rediscovery" in the past couple of years and growing re-acceptance. Several good knifemakers and Kabar are using it (I suspect Kabar's using it because Bob Dozier uses it and wouldn't let them use a "lesser" steel in the knives of his design they're making).
In my experience with field knives is that a good L6 blade will run rings around a good D2 blade, but the guys who make them tell me it's a pain to work and a pain to heat treat compared to D2 so it may not be worth it to more reasonable folks. Would L6 make a good production knife steel then? No way! D2's a much better choice if you were wanting to make knives of excellent quality cause you can't make an L6 knife for nearly the price of a good D2.
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