Whitney or Spiller & Burr?
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Tommygunn
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I am going to guess it's a Whitney because it looks like the frame in front of the cylinder has a bit of space between the front of the cylinder and the frame itself.
The S&B filled in this to compensate for the relative weakness of brass.
BUT IIRC early S&Bs had the open area.
So it is possible it could be an early Spiller & Burr.
The S&B filled in this to compensate for the relative weakness of brass.
BUT IIRC early S&Bs had the open area.
So it is possible it could be an early Spiller & Burr.
AussieTH
Member
Whatever they are - that dude looks like he has his hands full!
Reminds me of a pair of jumper leads walking down the street that were arrested and run in because it appeared that the they were looking for somewhere to start something
Oh dear! Sorry! I should not have said that - but what the hell
T.
Reminds me of a pair of jumper leads walking down the street that were arrested and run in because it appeared that the they were looking for somewhere to start something
Oh dear! Sorry! I should not have said that - but what the hell
T.
BHP FAN
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I'm going to say Spiller & Burr.Look at the cylinder's color compared to the frame,and as tommygun noted,the earlier ones had the more open frame of the Whitney.Also notice the Confederate ''D guard Bowie'' [may be the Georgia State issue,that went with their pikes],and also note the lack of a Yankee uniform. Not that it's impossible for this lad to have a Whitney,as a capture or a battle field pick up,but I'm guessing Spiller and Burr.
BHP FAN
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interesting front sight on the Colt,eh?
It's a tough call. The Whitneys had iron frames that turn a plumb brown, and the Spiller & Burrs had iron cylinders and brass frames. In each gun the cylinder would be a different color or shade from the rest of the gun.
I'm thinking Whitney because the Spiller & Burr had a thin,weak topstrap - this gun's topstrap looks solid.
But - is it an illusion or is the barrel on that revolver bent in the middle?
I'm thinking Whitney because the Spiller & Burr had a thin,weak topstrap - this gun's topstrap looks solid.
But - is it an illusion or is the barrel on that revolver bent in the middle?
BHP FAN
Member
The topstrap on the Spiller and Burr is exactly the same as the Whitney [other than being brass],being reverse engineered from it.I refer you to the excellent photo in the other Spiller and Burr thread,or page 271 of Confederate Longarms and Pistols [A Pictorial Study],by Richard Hill and William Anthony.
I read somewhere that the topstrap on the Spiller & Bur was thinner than the Whitney's or maybe weaker due to it being made of brass, like you said.
On my Whitney, the blued cylinder is darker than the iron frame, but the same color/shade as the barrel. In this gun, if it is a Spiller & Burr, the iron cylinder would be darker than the brass frame, as it is, and it also seems darker than the barrel. Then there's what looks like a bend in the barrel, which might mean it wasn't as well made as a Whitney. My Whitney is missing its original front sight but I think it might have been a bead sight, unlike the one on this revolver. The owner was a Confederate soldier. Yep, it might be a Spiller & Burr.
On my Whitney, the blued cylinder is darker than the iron frame, but the same color/shade as the barrel. In this gun, if it is a Spiller & Burr, the iron cylinder would be darker than the brass frame, as it is, and it also seems darker than the barrel. Then there's what looks like a bend in the barrel, which might mean it wasn't as well made as a Whitney. My Whitney is missing its original front sight but I think it might have been a bead sight, unlike the one on this revolver. The owner was a Confederate soldier. Yep, it might be a Spiller & Burr.
Thanks to Pohill for posting this photo on my behalf. I sent it to him in hopes of identifying the pistol in the foreground. I'm 90% certain that it's a Whitney, but welcome any evidence that would support either possibility.
The photo is of Matthew Wallace Hall, Company K, 36th Texas Cavalry (my 3rd great grandfather). The 36th operated primarily in Louisiana and along the Texas coast during the war. Here's a link listing known engagements of this unit:
http://www.angelfire.com/tx3/RandysTexas/36thcav.html
As noted in an earlier post, it is quite possible that this was a captured gun. I find it interesting that both pistols appear to have blade sights - which might have been a personal preference.
As to whether or not the barrel is bent - it's possible, but may be due to the fact that the image is a multi-generational copy. The original has sadly been lost, but a distant cousin took a photograph of the original as it hung on her uncle's wall in Coleman, TX sometime back in the 1950's.
I hope to obtain copies of all 3 weapons to display with the photo and regimental flag. The 32nd and 36th Texas Cav both flew the reknown "Bonnie Blue" flag. The Bowie will have to be custom-made. The Colt is readily available. The Whitney (if that is what it is) is proving difficult to locate. If it can be proven to be a Spiller, it would make my search much easier - as repros are still being manufactured.
I'm keeping the complete photo out of circulation - at least until I can acquire a Whitney repro (or until evidence tilts toward a Spiller).
Thanks again to everyone for your input! Keep it coming.
J_M_H
The photo is of Matthew Wallace Hall, Company K, 36th Texas Cavalry (my 3rd great grandfather). The 36th operated primarily in Louisiana and along the Texas coast during the war. Here's a link listing known engagements of this unit:
http://www.angelfire.com/tx3/RandysTexas/36thcav.html
As noted in an earlier post, it is quite possible that this was a captured gun. I find it interesting that both pistols appear to have blade sights - which might have been a personal preference.
As to whether or not the barrel is bent - it's possible, but may be due to the fact that the image is a multi-generational copy. The original has sadly been lost, but a distant cousin took a photograph of the original as it hung on her uncle's wall in Coleman, TX sometime back in the 1950's.
I hope to obtain copies of all 3 weapons to display with the photo and regimental flag. The 32nd and 36th Texas Cav both flew the reknown "Bonnie Blue" flag. The Bowie will have to be custom-made. The Colt is readily available. The Whitney (if that is what it is) is proving difficult to locate. If it can be proven to be a Spiller, it would make my search much easier - as repros are still being manufactured.
I'm keeping the complete photo out of circulation - at least until I can acquire a Whitney repro (or until evidence tilts toward a Spiller).
Thanks again to everyone for your input! Keep it coming.
J_M_H
Found the following link with some good historic pics for reference on the Spiller and Burr. The first couple of pages show how early versions had a gap between the front of the cylinder and the frame.
http://www.csarmory.org/spiller/spiller.html
J-M-H
http://www.csarmory.org/spiller/spiller.html
J-M-H
It looks like it has a recoil shield, so it's not a Dance Brothers.
It looks like it has an octagonal barrel - isn't the Leech & Rigdon barrel round?
I'd say Colt 1851 .36 - hinged loading lever, octagonal barrel, approx. the same size as the Whitney/Spiller & Burr.
Can the type of firearm determine his rank, or can the rank help ID the firearms? Would the average soldier have had two revolvers?
It looks like it has an octagonal barrel - isn't the Leech & Rigdon barrel round?
I'd say Colt 1851 .36 - hinged loading lever, octagonal barrel, approx. the same size as the Whitney/Spiller & Burr.
Can the type of firearm determine his rank, or can the rank help ID the firearms? Would the average soldier have had two revolvers?
BHP FAN
Member
Often times the firearms in the picture belonged to the photographer or studio as props.You see a lot of that in studio portraits.In this case ,I think the firearms belonged tothe soldier in question,due to the matching,non-standard front sights,which should have been the cone shaped bead.
BHP FAN
Member
pohill said...
''In this gun, if it is a Spiller & Burr, the iron cylinder would be darker than the brass frame, as it is, and it also seems darker than the barrel...''
yep,looks like it may be the twisted iron cylinder.pohill I think, has it nailed down.
''In this gun, if it is a Spiller & Burr, the iron cylinder would be darker than the brass frame, as it is, and it also seems darker than the barrel...''
yep,looks like it may be the twisted iron cylinder.pohill I think, has it nailed down.
He went in as a corporal and came out a private. Incidently, he was over 50 when he enlisted.
Many soldiers on both sides, but especially in the Confederacy, carried their own weapons instead of government-issue.
I'm well aware of the "studio portrait weapons" that were commonly used, but in this case I doubt it. As cited earlier, both pistols appear to have non-standard sights, and I doubt that he would have gone to the trouble of balancing 3 weapons if they were photographer-supplied.
As to carrying multiple revolvers, I don't know how common the practice was for the West Pointer crowd, but Cavalry tactics used by the various partisan ranger outfits were based on the principal of each man being armed with multiple revolvers - read up on the tactics of Mosby, Quantrill, Sol Street, etc...
J_M_H
Many soldiers on both sides, but especially in the Confederacy, carried their own weapons instead of government-issue.
I'm well aware of the "studio portrait weapons" that were commonly used, but in this case I doubt it. As cited earlier, both pistols appear to have non-standard sights, and I doubt that he would have gone to the trouble of balancing 3 weapons if they were photographer-supplied.
As to carrying multiple revolvers, I don't know how common the practice was for the West Pointer crowd, but Cavalry tactics used by the various partisan ranger outfits were based on the principal of each man being armed with multiple revolvers - read up on the tactics of Mosby, Quantrill, Sol Street, etc...
J_M_H
BHP FAN
Member
General Forrest was supposed to have bought multiple revolvers for his mounted men...with his own money.
Look at the Whitney in this pic - the blued cylinder is alot darker than the iron frame. I should take a black and white pic of it.
Too bad you can't see the trigger guard color/shade in the old photo to see the difference between it and the frame.
I think if he were my 3rd great grandfather, and I knew his military history, I'd lean towards the Spiller & Burr. There were alot fewer Spiller & Burrs made than Whitneys, which makes the photo that much "cooler."
Too bad you can't see the trigger guard color/shade in the old photo to see the difference between it and the frame.
I think if he were my 3rd great grandfather, and I knew his military history, I'd lean towards the Spiller & Burr. There were alot fewer Spiller & Burrs made than Whitneys, which makes the photo that much "cooler."
Hawkeye748
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Just my 2 cents. The revolver asked about is likely a Whitney though the blade front sight bothers me a bit. Might be a Marston, which were sold under the Western Arms or Union Arms names.
The Colt style pistol looks like it might be a George Todd pistol. Since the soldier was from Texas, this increases its possibility since they were made there. They came with a blade front sight. I am not sure that is a "recoil sheild". If there is no shield, a Dance is a possiblity also. It also was Texas made.
The D Guard is not a Georgia State issue. Does not look like them. The blade would have begun to tapered into a point before it went out of the picture. Looks like one I let get away from me a few years ago though.
It was quite common for ordinary soldiers in the calvery to carry multiple revolvers, particularly Southern calvery. They also would carry extra cylinders to swap out quickly. Forrest liked for his troopers to carry at least 4 revolvers and extra cylinders for each. When they emptied them, they were instructed go off to a safe place, change out and rejoin the battle.
The Colt style pistol looks like it might be a George Todd pistol. Since the soldier was from Texas, this increases its possibility since they were made there. They came with a blade front sight. I am not sure that is a "recoil sheild". If there is no shield, a Dance is a possiblity also. It also was Texas made.
The D Guard is not a Georgia State issue. Does not look like them. The blade would have begun to tapered into a point before it went out of the picture. Looks like one I let get away from me a few years ago though.
It was quite common for ordinary soldiers in the calvery to carry multiple revolvers, particularly Southern calvery. They also would carry extra cylinders to swap out quickly. Forrest liked for his troopers to carry at least 4 revolvers and extra cylinders for each. When they emptied them, they were instructed go off to a safe place, change out and rejoin the battle.
I've seen several sources that cite Forest's troops each being armed with 2 Navy pistols and a Spencer carbine. One such citation came from Alonzo Gray's book on Civil War Cavalry Tactics. Another came form a book on Forrest by Capt. J. Harvey Mathes.
Hawkeye748
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The Navy's I believe, but not the Spencer. The South was not able to produce the ammo for the Spencer and as such, regularly equipping troops with the Spencer was not an option. I know Forrest captured a lot of Federal ordinance and probably kept the best for his troops but I just don't see the Spencer as a routine weapon. I would like to know your sources. OOPS getting late. Missed your source cites. I will have to look at those.
My readings indicate they favored a DB shotgun and the Enfield rifles and carbines. They were known to cut down full length 3 banders to shorter lengths to carry better on a horse.
My readings indicate they favored a DB shotgun and the Enfield rifles and carbines. They were known to cut down full length 3 banders to shorter lengths to carry better on a horse.
BHP FAN
Member
There was a good breakdown of the armement of Terry's Texas Rangers in,IIRC,Civil War magazine.At the beginning of the war were lots of revolvers,and the double barrel scatter guns.Towards the end they still had the revolvers,but only one shotgun,and quite a few carbines,listed as ''breech loaders''...Hall? Sharps? Spencer?
Hawkeye748
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There were tons of breech loaders. The repeaters were generally mentioned as such to distinguish them with the single shot variety. MAynards, Smiths, Burnsides, Sharps, Gallagher were the most common. You also had Starrs, Gibbs, Merrills, Triplett and Scott, Cosmopolitan, etc. All of the above could use externally primed cartridges for ignition.
I don't believe any of the self-contained, internally primed cartridge guns were used extensively by the Confederacy because they would have had to rely exclussively on captured ammo. This would have been virtually impossible for obvious reasons. They would use them when they had them and the ammo, but for the most part, turned them in for reliable weapons with reliable ammo supplies.
I don't believe any of the self-contained, internally primed cartridge guns were used extensively by the Confederacy because they would have had to rely exclussively on captured ammo. This would have been virtually impossible for obvious reasons. They would use them when they had them and the ammo, but for the most part, turned them in for reliable weapons with reliable ammo supplies.
The Dance brothers favored blade sights. They also favored round barrels, but some Dance pistols did have octagonal barrels.
Here are some examples of several Texas-made pistols.
http://www.texasguntrade.com/texasrevolvers.htm
Here are some examples of several Texas-made pistols.
http://www.texasguntrade.com/texasrevolvers.htm
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