Who Do I Send My10mm 1911 To Make It Run?
- Thread starter Mot45acp
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Yes it does, happened to me with the MODEL 41 Smith and Wesson, had to send it in twice to make it work correctly.
Skylerbone
Member
As I had my Range Operator out to shoot today (ok yesterday now) I grabbed a set of feeler gauges to add some pictures. When all of this stuff was much newer to me I sometimes had difficulty visualizing what was happening so…pictures for posterity’s sake.
Pressing up on the bottom of the magazine has the same effect as a higher catch but most of us would not care to shoot that way.
Relaxing pressure shows the difference in where the magazine sits.
.020 feeler gauge easily slips into the gap.
Different angle.
Here we can see the leading edge of the disconnector rail as outlined in red, its direction of travel, and where it will make contact with the top round.
Initial contact and the round has not made contact with the extractor or the J Cut.
This area, known as the J Cut is a separate machining process from the rest of the breechface and isn’t always milled flat. This can be evidenced on fired brass as a sort of stamped depression to one side. Again, the round has not made contact for the OP before the nose dive occurs.
Pressing up on the bottom of the magazine has the same effect as a higher catch but most of us would not care to shoot that way.
Relaxing pressure shows the difference in where the magazine sits.
.020 feeler gauge easily slips into the gap.
Different angle.
Here we can see the leading edge of the disconnector rail as outlined in red, its direction of travel, and where it will make contact with the top round.
Initial contact and the round has not made contact with the extractor or the J Cut.
This area, known as the J Cut is a separate machining process from the rest of the breechface and isn’t always milled flat. This can be evidenced on fired brass as a sort of stamped depression to one side. Again, the round has not made contact for the OP before the nose dive occurs.
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Skylerbone
Member
Now think of the loading process as if the slide rail were a baseball bat about to drive a fastball. Hit the ball high, and you’ll have a grounder. Hit low and it’s a fly ball. As there is a gap between rounds in the magazine, those high hits drive the round down and away from the feed lips that normally guide it while a lower contact point allows the magazine to do its job of capturing the round until it can be fed up behind the extractor and fed.
A high strike will send the bullet diving.
A lower strike will allow it to travel in a straighter path.
Note the gap between top and second round. This space is where the OP’s slide is aiming the top round.
Looks something like this after just a few mm of movement.
How the top round should look.
A high strike will send the bullet diving.
A lower strike will allow it to travel in a straighter path.
Note the gap between top and second round. This space is where the OP’s slide is aiming the top round.
Looks something like this after just a few mm of movement.
How the top round should look.
Mark_Mark
Member
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EXCELLENT demonstrations, you definitely bring a lot of value and wisdom to his forum. I'm old but I love learning, today you have schooled me, thank you.
I have like 6 or more 10mm's. From Colt's to Sig's,to Glocks to Grand Powers, well you get the idea. I have never had a problem with the feed ramp, to me, it doesn't sound like they know what they are doing. Nothing personal.
TomJ
Contributing Member
I'm a small business owner and the answer to your problem is in these two quotes. From time to time we make mistakes, and when we do we correct them, even if it costs us time or money. Our experience has been that if we do that most customers are understanding and we retain them as customers. What we never want to hear is that a customer is leaving us for a competitor. Losing a customer because we refused to correct a mistake we made is incomprehensible to me. The owner you're dealing with is understandably angry that your gun isn't working. That's his reputation that's being affected. I'd recommend bringing it back to them and explaining to the owner that you'd either like the gun repaired or a refund of your money plus replacement magazines for the ones the gun smith ruined. If he won't do that I'd calmly tell him that he's lost a customer, assuming you have other options. I'd also post their name here, not to be vindictive but to help other forum members who may be in your area. You'll either be letting members know there's a business owner who stands behind his work or be sparing them the grief you're experiencing.
Jim Watson
Member
That might be the problem. I have two integral ramp 9mms that came from the factory too steep for good feeding of anything but hardball, and it was kind of bumpy in one of them.
But they had "case support," by yiminy.
FLG recontoured the ramps, relaxing the angle a bit. Case support was less but still comparable to other 9mms and they will now feed SWC and JHP.
Skylerbone
Member
It been bothering me as well, though less so knowing the barrel came from Clark rather than a Johnny-come-lately.
I suppose if it were mine I’d be checking the ramp’s angle then smoking the barrel ramp to see the point of impact and testing with progressively increasing rounds loaded to determine if any number fed reliably. I would also remove the slide and inspect the J cut along with slipping a round in. I also re-profile my extractor claws with the exception of my Smith (external extractor). Still feel like these are the outliers, though none of us can say with certainty.
SwampWolf
Member
Kudus to you for your patience and "understanding". I am made differently I suppose; for the money paid and the lack of any accountability, I'd be livid. This "gunsmith" should endeavor to make your pistol run reliably, no matter how much you paid for the work. If he can't for whatever reason, he should reimburse you for every cent you paid. Period.
UPDATE!
Got the call yesterday, but due to work I couldn't make it in during business hours. (I'm looking at 100 hours this week). They called again today, but I wasn't going to be local till about 7pm (they close at 6 during week.) He said "No problem, we'll wait"
So I failed to mention, this gun is 100% nitride, inside and out. Everything except the aluminum trigger. This caused some other issues that I never saw due to it being a single shot. He said it was doubling and trippling. He said the the nitride made the engagement surfaces too slick. Keep in mind what sold me on this pistol is I shot a 10mm commander bobtail in stainless that he built, and the owner carries. He said his big takeaway from this is he will never nitride internals again.
The recut the ramp, reprofiled sear, spring geometry, replaced the slide stop. Basically fixed the gun instead of bandaids. They also fixed the mag lips back to original (or functional) form so they work in both this and in my DW Specialist again.
I have the gun back. It feeds, functions and fires. It is's a laser beam in my hands.
It fed and functioned with:
Sig 180 gr FMJ
Sig 180 gr JHP
Mag tech 180 gr FMJ (1000 rounds delivered today woohoo!)
Underwood 180gr JHP
Underwood 165 gr JHP (which is my intended carry ammo for this gun)
This was with the mags they modified, then unmodified. And because I'm a trust but verify guy, also the mags I had on hand (DW and Tripp) that were never monkeyed with.
This thing is a laser beam. Follow up shots are slowish due to recoil, but it is by far the most accurate pistol I own.
So yes there were some bobbles, but level headedness on my part , and integrity of both the owner and the smith prevailed.
Also the first 10mm Sig P320 that comes through the door is mine...sigh, it's a sickness.
Got the call yesterday, but due to work I couldn't make it in during business hours. (I'm looking at 100 hours this week). They called again today, but I wasn't going to be local till about 7pm (they close at 6 during week.) He said "No problem, we'll wait"
So I failed to mention, this gun is 100% nitride, inside and out. Everything except the aluminum trigger. This caused some other issues that I never saw due to it being a single shot. He said it was doubling and trippling. He said the the nitride made the engagement surfaces too slick. Keep in mind what sold me on this pistol is I shot a 10mm commander bobtail in stainless that he built, and the owner carries. He said his big takeaway from this is he will never nitride internals again.
The recut the ramp, reprofiled sear, spring geometry, replaced the slide stop. Basically fixed the gun instead of bandaids. They also fixed the mag lips back to original (or functional) form so they work in both this and in my DW Specialist again.
I have the gun back. It feeds, functions and fires. It is's a laser beam in my hands.
It fed and functioned with:
Sig 180 gr FMJ
Sig 180 gr JHP
Mag tech 180 gr FMJ (1000 rounds delivered today woohoo!)
Underwood 180gr JHP
Underwood 165 gr JHP (which is my intended carry ammo for this gun)
This was with the mags they modified, then unmodified. And because I'm a trust but verify guy, also the mags I had on hand (DW and Tripp) that were never monkeyed with.
This thing is a laser beam. Follow up shots are slowish due to recoil, but it is by far the most accurate pistol I own.
So yes there were some bobbles, but level headedness on my part , and integrity of both the owner and the smith prevailed.
Also the first 10mm Sig P320 that comes through the door is mine...sigh, it's a sickness.
Mark_Mark
Member
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- Jan 9, 2021
- Messages
- 18,066
you the Man! 100hours a week, thought my wife worked alot, what you do?
imagine double and trip with 10mm in a Commander size 1911. INSANE
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ontarget
Member
Very glad it worked out. Should have been right to begin with, but as the saying goes, All is well that ends well.
Also, it shows that your 'smith and the shop he works for value their customers. That was pretty quick turn around. And the fact that the owner waited an hour after closing time for you....good on him.
I am a hot tapper, I drill holes and stop flow in live lines in refineries and pipelines.
upptick
Member
- Joined
- Dec 7, 2020
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- 281
Because he wanted a piece of jewelry?
WestKentucky
Member
I was going to suggest a dumb thing like shooting the gun sloppy wet with lube to see what happened. Glad I read through the whole situation though, and very happy for you in finally having a dream come through to reality.
Runaway 1911s can be very interesting, and not in a good way. Even more so with peppy rounds or smaller guns. You got both… and it would probably been a mag dump runaway if not for being forced into a limp wrist situation under unexpected auto fire recoil.
Very nice.
Runaway 1911s can be very interesting, and not in a good way. Even more so with peppy rounds or smaller guns. You got both… and it would probably been a mag dump runaway if not for being forced into a limp wrist situation under unexpected auto fire recoil.
Very nice.
I wanted a custom pistol built to my specifications that is unavailable as a production model. Not many frills on this, definitely not a BBQ gun. It will never have the value monetarily as it does to me, so no point in keeping it pretty. I plan to shoot the crap out of it, carry it etc. Maybe one day one of the kids will want it.
And I already have a Glock in 10mm. And 4 more in 9mm. Kinda glocked out. Come to think of it, I'm kind of striker fired polymer nined out. Nothing wrong with them. My VP9 is my favorite (for now)I have a Canik that's supposed to be the end all be all, still unfired and NIB.
md7
Member
Wow. Very well articulated. I just got schooled in a good way.
Mark_Mark
Member
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2021
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Hot tapper! that what she…. naw I can’t go there! lol
Good stuff man! Haters are going to hate! now you got a running custom gun with 1,000 rounds of 10mm coming in! That’s what you call a good week!
Skylerbone
Member
It isn’t about making things too slick, no such thing with proper geometry. My thoughts are that he perhaps altered the feed ramp angle before treatment and did not relieve enough material in the correct locations to allow for easier feed (as suggested earlier by @Jim Watson). Understandable to some degree when fiddling with a high pressure round as 10mm is, but should have been function tested ad nausium before nitride.
With the internals being processed the small parts can wind up with altered geometry as they are too thin in most cases to have any portion unaffected by temperature during nitrocarburizing. Some well known smiths have discontinued the service in favor of alternate treatments or coatings for internal parts.
I am thrilled things turned and that the OP now has the pistol he paid for, nothing better than a happy ending to the saga.
Though it doesn’t look it now, this frame ramp/barrel ramp was polished to a mirror finish down to 1000 grit then various stages of jeweler’s polish. It has seen in excess of 10k rounds since that time. Never was it too slick to feed as there is no such possibility, even with a slick coating (mine generally includes a bit of lubricant which increases lubricity more than nitride ever could).
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