Who Else Has Finally Figured Out That Sub-Compacts Are a CCW Handicap?

[Capybara]

So, I see you skipped over most of the posts where people talked about their hand size, most who like the smaller guns who mentioned hand size had average or large hands, they didn't like them because of small hands. Me, I didn't mention mine, but my hand itself is average to large and it is quite meaty, and my fingers, while short for the rest of my hand, are quite thick (I wear a large glove and they usually fit a bit tight, but I don't go to extra large as there would be too much extra material in the fingers, so I try to get stretchy larges). Yes, I notice that the P365 grip is small, but I can still shoot it well. Sure, there is less muzzle flip in a larger gun, but some of the smaller guns aren't bad. I prefer a larger gun where possible, more rounds, less muzzle flip, faster follow up shots, I gave up single stack micro compacts long ago for a reason. If I didn't find my P365 and similar guns performed well, I wouldn't use them. With a 12 round mag, I can still get a full hand grip and have a lot of control. I do find it easier to shoot one handed with the flush 10 round grips than trying to get a two-handed grip, and my groups do open up a bit when shooting rapid fire, but it is still within easy "combat accuracy" and still more accurate than I can fire my G19. I am quite comfortable with it up to 20 yards, and "combat accurate" to 25 yards (since I shoot at an indoor 25 yard range most of the time, I don't know how I'd do beyond that). Because it is capable, the next criteria is concealability. Sure, it isn't quite as capable as my compact service pistols, but it is very capable, and it is certainly easier to conceal. And that is with relatively large hands.

No, I read those and saw that. Point noted that not everyone who shoots a micro compact well has small hands. I am also taking into account my shooting and CCW friends, none of the owners of the 365 or Hellcat have even medium sized hands, we actually give each other crap about how they have hands that look like these (see image) and we have "normal" hands. We do the same with left handed when they whine about how XXX gun isn't ambidextrous, we tell them that we're sorry they can't shoot the "right" way, it's all good natured ribbing. You don't rib your shooting friends?

 

[Capybara]

Me too!
View attachment 1142168

The hobbit commentary comes across as an insult. I take it you don't fire many revolvers. Even mid size revolvers can have small circumference grips since a magazine doesn't get stuffed up the grip frame. Both equally shootable in their own way.

My friends description of their hands and stature when we hike together, not mine, not intended as an insult. I'm tall and thin and I don't get hurt feelings when people call me "stilts" or "Lurch". You may be taking it too seriously unless you are an actual Hobbit? I have a Smith & Wesson 625 and a M17. The 625 has a pretty big grip and the M17 has a tiny one since it's a .22 but no, I have never carried or drawn a revolver from concealment.

 

[Nuke8401]

I've carried my trusty Shield 1.0 for almost 8 years. I recently acquired a Ruger Max 9 to try out carrying with an optic and I liked my Shield 1.0 so much that I bought a Shield Plus PC. I like all three guns. I've shot my friend's Hellcat and P365 as well. I also have my G17 on my CCW and occasionally carry it but it's a bit uncomfortable when sitting down or driving, the handle digs into my side. But as far as shooting, drawing and accuracy, the G17 is soooo much easier, smoother and quicker than my subcompacts. I have medium sized hands and long fingers and my friends Hellcat and 365 would be useless to me as a carry gun, the grips are so tiny that I can barely fit it in my hand and when I do, the gun is swimming around, hard to get a good grip with the primary hand and the support palm doesn't even touch the gun, just the fingers on the primary. It's not a good grip.

I think we've reached the same point with sub compact CCW pistols that we reached with cell phones. Remember the older days when we all had flip phones and candybar phones? They reached a point where some of the models were just too small, you couldn't even manipulate or use them to make a call without almost dropping them. The earpiece and mouthpiece were so close together that your mouth was almost too far from the mouthpiece when you had the phone to your ear. I think sub compact pistol mania is at the same point, we went too small and now the trend is going back to the more compact size, rather than sub/micro compact.

I'm seriously considering adding a G19, Shadow Systems MR920 or a Walther PDP Compact with the 4.25" barrel to my CCW next time I am able to. Do you have a subcompact CCW and are coming to the realization that a compact instead of a subcompact would actually be a better carry gun? I shoot my subcompacts ok, but trying to quickly get a good grip is a three ring circus because I have to exaggerate how far into the trigger guard I must place my trigger finger in order to close the gap between my support hand palm and the side of the pistol. With the G17, I can just present the gun and my hands fall right into place, no gyrations required. The Glock grip is fat on the 17 and 19 but at least it gives your grip palm and the supporting hand palm a place to go. With the subcompacts, I have to work at it, which eats up precious time and I do not shoot them as accurately as a larger pistol, even with practice.

Thoughts? Anyone else thinking of dumping their subcompact CCW guns for something a mid size like a G19? It's all fine to have a smaller, lighter, less bulky carry gun but if you don't shoot it as well, is comfort everything?

I agree, going to a M+P compact 3.6 Optic Ready from Kel-tek 380 and a CSX. If I'm going to conceal something I want to be able to shoot it well.

 

[CapnMac]

didn't buy a Ruger LCP

Y'know, I think the LCP is an excellent piece of work. Everything to recommend it. But, there's just something about how they run in my hands that just isn't quite right. Luckily, there are plenty of options to hit that "goldilocks."

 

[Capybara]

I agree, going to a M+P compact 3.6 Optic Ready from Kel-tek 380 and a CSX. If I'm going to conceal something I want to be able to shoot it well.

I have the two Shields but I've never shot the M&P Compact or 2.0 F/S. I bet they shoot very nicely.

 

[Capybara]

Y'know, I think the LCP is an excellent piece of work. Everything to recommend it. But, there's just something about how they run in my hands that just isn't quite right. Luckily, there are plenty of options to hit that "goldilocks."

Have you handled the Max 9? It feels pretty good in my hands and it came optics ready which is a bonus.

 

[Skribs]

Y'know, I think the LCP is an excellent piece of work. Everything to recommend it. But, there's just something about how they run in my hands that just isn't quite right. Luckily, there are plenty of options to hit that "goldilocks."

Couple of weird notes about the LCP from my experience.

First, it's the only gun I've ever owned where I can feel the deceleration when the slide picks up the next round to chamber. It's a very weird feeling. Also one of the reasons I only carry FMJs, is because I know they'll feed reliably.

Second, if I have the LCP in my pocket with a Desantis holster and I pet a cat, I get a lot of static charge. Any other gun on my hip, no static charge when petting a cat.

 

[CapnMac]

I'm not entirely sure hand size is as critical as it might seem. The testimony above lends credence to that notion, if only notionally.
And such things are very relative, too. For plain latex gloves, I use a M, for nitrile gloves I have to use a L, except for the black BBQ gloves, then, M again (which is mostly about not having floppy cuffs).

It may be more about muscle memory and experience as to what fits best in the hand when shooting. The number of folks I know who either love or hate I frame or Pocket frame grips, seems to be irrespective of hand size.

 

[CapnMac]

Have you handled the Max 9?

Yeah, but only as a quick 5-round loan on the firing line, not like a proper rental with a couple of boxes run through.

When I got my SIG, the 365X was a sweet spot, and having factory-installed optics was like getting an extra layer of frosting on the cake.

It's a very weird feeling

It can sound like houdoo when said out loud, or put into stark print, but such things are very real to the person feeling them. And that's something worth taking into account, when possible.
For what ever reason, I've never been able to shoot any of the SW 945 series--and those are some fine bits of engineering with much to recommend them. Put one in my hands and your barn might be at risk, but not your shed. Had a bro, he was greased lighting with the entire batch of SW 45s, as in minute of playing card.

I had a Colt Mustang back in the day. It did everything I asked of it. But, I much preferred my 380 Gov't Model instead. And, some of that was being able to get that fourth finger on the grip--if only just. I know folks who love their Mustangs, the Pocket Lite, or even the SIG knock-off. I'll not fault them for that (ok, if they drive a Prius with a lift kit, I'm giving them grief, but that's different).

 

[epags]

OP said: "Who Else Has Finally Figured Out That Sub-Compacts Are a CCW Handicap?"
What is a CCW handicap? Slow to draw, inaccurate, inadequate? In my case it is lack of accuracy while under stress. Read on:
I live in California and the requirement for holding a CCW is that you have to qualify with the exact gun you will carry and the qualification includes a timed fire at four distances. Draw from concealed and place two shots into a target like this (with no misses) in 5 seconds @ 3,7 and 10 yards and 10 seconds @15 yards. Repeat again.
When I first applied for my CCW I selected my Ruger LCR 38 spl and my Glock Model 36 45ACP. While I qualified with both, I found that during my subsequent routine timed training I had difficulty in getting all my hits from the Ruger LCR (too small a grip, short sight picture and heavy recoil due to it being so light) on the silhouette....making me think that in a real stress situation I could hit an innocent bystander and that would be a disaster legally, mentally and financially.
Subsequently I have limited my CCW to my Mod 36 (since I can get all in the x and 9 rings).

 

[Captains1911]

Small guns are much harder to shoot well than larger ones, even for experienced shooters. That’s the trade off for them being easier to carry. It’s all about compromise.

 

[Rexster]

I'm seriously considering adding a G19, Shadow Systems MR920 or a Walther PDP Compact with the 4.25" barrel to my CCW next time I am able to. Do you have a subcompact CCW and are coming to the realization that a compact instead of a subcompact would actually be a better carry gun?

Thoughts? Anyone else thinking of dumping their subcompact CCW guns for something a mid size like a G19? It's all fine to have a smaller, lighter, less bulky carry gun but if you don't shoot it as well, is comfort everything?

The following responses are not in the same order as the above questions/comments:

I traded-away my G19 Glocks in 2020, after not shooting them since a painful qual, at the PD range, in 2017, at age 56. Too short, in the grip. (More about this, further down.)

I tried a number of sub-compact and compact pistols, chambered for duty-type cartridges, in the Eighties and Nineties, up to 2002-2004, so, my “realization” happened quite some time ago. My skinny fingers enabled three-finger grips, on most of the compacts and subcompacts I tried,, but my large hands never enabled me to perform as well with a “chopped” grip as well as with a duty-sized grip, that reached all the way to the “heel bone” part of my hand. A too-narrow gripping area could also be a problem, though some double-column-mag pistols were/are wide enough to be a problem, as I have short thumbs, and short pinkies. The pinkie actually contributes quite a bit to grip strength, so, a large-volume grip, that prevents my pinkie from having some traction, is not my friend.

“Is comfort everything?” Well, I have aged-out of shooting many handguns, so, comfort is pretty darned important. It is comfortable, for me to shoot 9mm Glocks with G17-sized grips. It is comfortable for me to shoot full-sized, all-steel 1911 Govt-sized pistols. These pistols are my friends. I have also noticed that pistols with duty-length barrels/slides are more stable, when holstered, whether IWB or OWB, so, again, full-sized pistols are my friends. Dressing around larger weapons is more trouble, of course, but I have never considered that to be a factor in “comfort.” So, my most comfortable pistols are my most accurate pistols. Life is good.

I do still have a place for “baby” Glocks. The width and volume of the grip enables effective shooting, but, I only train with them, with my healthier left hand. I still consider my right hand to be my “primary” weapon hand, with handguns. (I am, effectively, ambidextrous with most of the handguns that I use. I right lefty, and throw righty, so, am not truly and fully ambidextrous. Some handguns work better in my left hand, and some work better in my right hand. Strange, yes.)

A “baby” Glock can be a nice emergency “reload,” when the “primary” weapon is a revolving pistol. Life is good.

On the revolver side of things, the smallest weapon I normally carry is the Ruger SP101. The “heel” of the factory grip actually reaches all the way to the “heel bone” of my hand, enhancing stability and accuracy. Yes, indeed, the SP101 grip means that it fits me better than does a Glock G19. An SP101 with a 3-1/8” barrel balances much like a 4” K-Frame, which enhances “pointability” and practical accuracy. The SP101 is my friend.

Back to that painful qual, with my G19 pistols. At that time, I was still working for Houston PD. My usual duty pistol, at that time, was a 1911, which I had been using in that role, since early 2016, when I was able to resume using 1911 duty pistols, for the first time in a number of years. My previous usual duty pistol was a Gen4 G17, and I was still using both Glock and 1911 pistols, both of which point just fine, in my hands. Because I always fired my 1911 and G17 pistols more accurately than the G19, I usually toted the bigger pistols during personal time, too. Getting “qual’ed” with all of my pistols required multiple range visits, and, for a now-forgotten reason, decided to get my little-used G19 pistols done, first. Well, 50 rounds, each, with 80 of those being fired right-handed, did not hurt, while shooting, but shortly afterward, the pain, swelling, and discoloration started. I allowed two weeks, to heal, and then qual’ed with my full-sized guns, which did not cause pain or swelling. Big pistols are my friends.

All of the above applies to compact and subcompact pistols chambered for duty-type cartridges. Covering small-bore and “pocket pistol cartridge” weapons would be too much typing. I will say that I have dabbled with .380 ACP pistols, but never made a habit of carrying them. I have occasional, niche roles for the Seecamp LWS-32, .32 ACP. This little pistol is ingeniously designed, at least for my hands, to behave like a bigger pistol, in spite of only a one-finger grip being possible. Of course, having no sights, it is not a weapon for longer-range fighting, anyway.

 

[WestKentucky]

2 fingers is barely acceptable. 3 fingers is way way better. And yes it’s pretty much just that simple. No the pinky finger doesn’t add much in the way of grip strength but if you manipulate your hand you can see that the pinky has a unique quality in that when palms are flat to the ground the pinky can go up and down somewhat independently. That means it can greatly form around the gun and stabilize the grip. Lose pinky hold and you have lost a huge chunk of your ability. Just look at how many “extended grip” mag caps we have seen specifically for the purpose of getting the pinky finger on the gun. It’s like they make them exceedingly small just to sell them as the smallest thing ever, then they make the grip extension to make them big enough to hold. Kinda counterproductive in reality, but it’s how the market works. My EC9s is almost too thin for me, almost too short of a grip, and almost too small of sights. That makes it just about perfect in that everything is as small as it gets without crossing the line to being too small.

 

[Rexster]

Something I think that I forgot to mention, in my previous post, is that I never found a practical difference, in conceal-ability, between the G19 and G17. In each case, it was the outside rear corner of the slide that “printed” the most, against the cover garment, a dimension that is the same, with each pistol. Only at AIWB would the longer grip size of the G17 make a difference, compared to a G19, in printing against the cover garment, and the G17’s muzzle would jab my leg, while sitting, but, I never learned to like any wide-body pistol inside my britches, away, making this difference moot. (The only weapon that I will tolerate for long, in an AIWB holster, is a smaller-frame revolver, max being an SP101.)

 

[Capybara]

Getting “qual’ed” with all of my pistols required multiple range visits, and, for a now-forgotten reason, decided to get my little-used G19 pistols done, first. Well, 50 rounds, each, with 80 of those being fired right-handed, did not hurt, while shooting, but shortly afterward, the pain, swelling, and discoloration started. I allowed two weeks, to heal, and then qual’ed with my full-sized guns, which did not cause pain or swelling. Big pistols are my friends.

Wow, first time I've heard of a pistol actually causing pain and swelling. I guess your hands were telling you, in no uncertain terms, that you are not a G19 guy.

 

[Capybara]

What is a CCW handicap? Slow to draw, inaccurate, inadequate? In my case it is lack of accuracy while under stress.

You pretty much nailed it, I can shoot my G17 much faster because when I draw it out of the holster and raise it to shoot, it is comfortable in my hands and I have a secure, relatively tight grip on it. By the time the barrel comes into my sight picture and is pointing at the target, I can shoot immediately in one smooth motion. When I do the same drill with a subcompact/Micro 9, it takes me longer to get the grip out of the holster, because it seems more "buried" in the holster, (the G17 handle, at least on my holsters, isn't "in' the holster, it's outside of it, just waiting to be gripped and pulled out) and once the smaller gun is in my hand, I have to choke up my trigger finger so it is WELL past the first distal joint and almost to the second joint (proximal interphalangeal). This is the only way to make sure that the "gap" between my support hand palm (actually the Thenar, not the palm proper) and the frame of the gun is closed, or at least as closed as I can get it. The more gap, there, the more chance you will rotate the gun as you squeeze the trigger.

A typical complain about the Shield is that it is "too thin". Think about it, if there is a large gap between the support hand Thenar and the frame of the gun, the more pressure applied to "close the gap", the more chance of the gun rotating/twisting, even if just a small amount. That twisting, plus NOT being able to use the pad of your trigger finger or at least the first distal joint also contributes to why shots with small pistols, for me, have more of a tendency to be left of POA. So it takes longer with the small pistol to get it into "the pocket" of a good hold and ready to shoot and once I do shoot, because of the small grip/thinness of the gun, there is more of a chance I will not hit what I think I am aiming at.

I don't usually miss my target because of stress under time, it's usually more from not being able to accomplish the mechanics of a decent grip quickly. I don't seem to have these problems with the G17 and I assume I wouldn't with the G19 but I don't know that for a fact because I have only held a G19, I've never shot one.

 

[Alllen Bundy]

I have medium sized hands and long fingers and my friends Hellcat and 365 would be useless to me as a carry gun, the grips are so tiny that I can barely fit it in my hand and when I do, the gun is swimming around, hard to get a good grip with the primary hand and the support palm doesn't even touch the gun, just the fingers on the primary. It's not a good grip.

I've got very long fingers and XL size hands. My fingers completely wrap around the grip of my P365X and touch the base of my thumb. The bottom of the grip contacts the lower part of my palm. The MagGuts floor plate on the magazine, which protrudes downward about 1/8" further than the Sig floor plate, makes it a perfect fit for my hand. I can literally grip the magwell tight enough that I can visibly see it deform. I shoot almost as well with my dominant hand as I do with two. The fact that my support hand can not even touch the pistol seems irrelevant to me.

My P365XL is perfect for my normal carry, and my P365X works for pocket carry. Although I am going to practice with the shorter P365 grip module and see if I can shoot it well enough to use it for pocket carry.

If I were to open carry I would buy the taller X-Macro grip module, mainly for the 17 round capacity. I held one in the gun shop, but it didn't feel as comfortable in my hand as my P365XL. Granted, I did not try swapping the replaceable backstraps. Maybe another size backstrap would have felt more comfortable in my hand.

The P365XL with iron sights is as large as I can practically carry concealed, so for better or worse that is what I will use.

 

[WVRJ]

From 1996 until 2009 I had one pistol that I carried concealed,a S&W Shorty 40.I still like that pistol to carry as much as any other,but now I have more to pick from.My two main carry guns now are a full size alloy frame 1911(My name is Randy and I own a Kimber,humor intended).I literally just walked in the house from the range out back where I was shooting it at 40 yards,and shooting it not so bad.The other one is my main carry gun,especially in warm weather.It's a P365XL with a Wilson Combat grip module,and I shoot it almost as well as my 1911's.One thing I've found with any size pistol is that my ability to shoot it well depends on the time I practice with it,period.My smallest carry gun is a P365.On the first trip to the public range to shoot with my friends,I walked up to the 25 yard line,drew and fired 2 shots,both of which clipped the 2 inch bull.I got some funny looks,but they didn't know I had already put 100 rounds through it at home,and was on my game quite well.My wife also decided she could shoot it well and she confiscated it shortly after I got it,so I went back and got a P365XL.The Wilson grip makes it fill my small hands very well and it is a delight to shoot.I also have a short P365 Wilson grip that I'll put on it for the summer if I need to hide it better.I've found that just a few rounds a few times a week can keep me in tune,and some dry fire in between makes it even better,no matter which gun I'm carrying and shooting at the time.I would have to say that I don't lose much when I'm carrying a smaller pistol,but I can lose a lot,no matter what I'm carrying if I'm not shooting it on a regular basis.I think that's the key,especially with a smaller pistol.

 

[DDDWho]

Many years of trial and error brought me to the 4 CCW guns I now use. None are as big as a Glock 19. I’m not sure I know the difference between compact and sub compact. My carry guns are on the smallish side, all are comfortable whether sitting walking or driving.

 

[duwayne potter]

Sig p365 sas in the front pocket works for me. Not a big guy, comfortable with my 1911s and stacatto p.

 

[chicharrones]

My friends description of their hands and stature when we hike together, not mine, not intended as an insult. I'm tall and thin and I don't get hurt feelings when people call me "stilts" or "Lurch". You may be taking it too seriously unless you are an actual Hobbit? I have a Smith & Wesson 625 and a M17. The 625 has a pretty big grip and the M17 has a tiny one since it's a .22 but no, I have never carried or drawn a revolver from concealment.

If we were sitting together at a bar, I’d be able to figure that out. But here we are on the net reading cold black text.

 

[JR24]

Normally yes, but my 365xl shoots 90% as well as my Glock 19 (or anything else).

For the size, weight and ease of concealment it’s what I go with.

 

[.455_Hunter]

I guess I have mutant hands...

I find a Colt New Service or Beretta 92 comfortable, as well as the 950BS or NAA Minis with just the mild wooden boot grip upgrade. However, S&W "target" K/L or N grips are like holding a 2x2.

 

[Targa]

Small guns are much harder to shoot well than larger ones, even for experienced shooters. That’s the trade off for them being easier to carry. It’s all about compromise.

Spot on!

 

[balin]

I wouldn't call any handgun a handicap. More like a compromise. If there are more good points then it is a good compromise and 8s probably worth carrying.