Who else likes a Hammer on their snubbie?

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With my 442 and laser grips, I can't even stay on paper at 50 yards.

Your paper must be too small!:D Seriously, the Centennial is by no means a fifty yard gun.

I have difficulty envisioning a situation in which deadly force would even be remotely justified in a fifty yard encounter among civilians. Police, yes. Perhaps you were thinking of law enforcement applications.
 
I carry a S&W model 37... I tried shooting DA one handed, DA two handed, and SA yesterday.

I'm sure you can predict the results...
I just hope, if I ever have to use it fast against a bad guy, that he's nice and wide. :scrutiny:
 
I enjoy Centennials. I've owned three over the last 20 years and will replace the one I traded off about a year ago so I have one in my modest stable. They are very handy for snag free pocket carry.

I also like the option of a single action shot for reasons I've explained above, hiking, plinking, shooting at targets, etc.

Shooting a snubby single action in self defense is also an option. It's not a case of either or. Folks should learn to shoot da well. DA should be practiced not only for fast well placed defensive type shooting but I think also for general accuracy. The latter helps the former and is a goal in itself.

The following is from a link in The Snubnose Files on the Centennial variants: "there are almost no situations in which single action fire is appropriate in self defense. Most self defense situations unfold rapidly. There isn't time to thumb cock a revolver and take careful aim in the way one would do while target shooting". I could not identify the author.

Here the author is both right and wrong. Given that shooting a gun in self defense is fairly rare to begin with it is true that "there are almost no situations" where a single action shot is needed. This is true. But the author is careful to say "almost no".

Remember Luby's Cafeteria down in Texas, a place about the size of your local Denny's or Red Lobster. A fella entered Luby's and started shooting customers at random. He walked from front to back.

In how many malls in the last few years has a person entered with a rifle and begun shooting? A few churches have been shot up as well. What were the distances involved do you think?

Now I'm not in favor of shooting where innocents could be hit by a shot. Neither am I trying to provoke a discussion of all the possible variants that could come up about when to shoot and when not to shoot etc. But at Luby's, or that mall up in Washington State where the fella with the SKS walked in, a well aimed shot, when the target was clear, may have been an option. Single action would have been the way to go, if you had the option and you knew you could make the shot. You only know if you practice at the distances needed.

The last bit added by the author
There isn't time to thumb cock a revolver and take careful aim in the way one would do while target shooting".
was unnecessary and only added as a distraction. Nope a shot at longer ranges would hopefully be taken from cover and braced not at all like target shooting . The author likely knew this but threw it in as overkill. I hope he doesn't think no well aimed shot from a distance of more than 10 yards might ever be needed in a defensive encounter he knows he'd be wrong.

"A cocked revolver is dangerous in the adrenaline dump of a lethal force encounter. The trigger is just too light. Its too easy to fire when you don't mean to".

This is true and why defensive shooting is mostly a da matter. It's also true, and I mentioned this in a previous post, why holding some one at gunpoint with a cocked revolver, or threatening them with the same, is an accident waiting to happen, more Hollywood, than useful.

If a shot has to be taken and the shooter knows they can not accurately place the shot da, due to the distance involved or other factors, then the option of a sa shot is available. Of course only if the shooting is justified. This is true of all revolvers, not just snubbys.

It seems to me that for concealed carry for self defense, the hammer is a liability and little more--if you aren't going have time to use it and know that you should not use it, why have it?

Experience. Back to Luby's the 30 yards from the front to the rear. From the front pew to the door. The distance of 3 storefronts in a mall. The cougar going over the back fence with an infant or your pet Pomeranian. What shot could you take, with confidence of a torso hit, from what distance?

tipoc
 
I enjoy Centennials. I've owned three over the last 20 years and will replace the one I traded off about a year ago so I have one in my modest stable. They are very handy for snag free pocket carry. I also like the option of a single action shot for reasons I've explained above, hiking, plinking, shooting at targets, etc.

I think we are in complete agreement!

"A cocked revolver is dangerous in the adrenaline dump of a lethal force encounter. The trigger is just too light. Its too easy to fire when you don't mean to"--This is true and why defensive shooting is mostly a da matter.

And again, on this!

It's also true, and I mentioned this in a previous post, why holding some one at gunpoint with a cocked revolver, or threatening them with the same, is an accident waiting to happen, more Hollywood, than useful.

FYI, where I live, an armed civilian can neither detain nor threaten anyone with a weapon--unless you characterize the production of a weapon upon the emergence of a clear and present danger as "threatening".

The cougar going over the back fence with an infant or your pet Pomeranian. What shot could you take, with confidence of a torso hit, from what distance?

I think we are in agreement that the Centennial is not the best weapon for all situations.

So--when answering the question, "who likes a hammer..." my answer is " I certainly do for some applications, but not for others."

I have not given much thought to the scenarios you describe--most churches malls around here do not permit CC--and "justifiability" in SD generally applies to "self" and family in an imminent danger situation. I have been told that one may defend others under some circumstances but that lawyers overwhelmingly advise against it.

Outside--where the castle doctrine does not apply--one is expected to avoid, evade, and if possible, escape, before engaging. To me that says that engagement distance will be short indeed.

You raise some very good points.
 
Here you go

M-60 in wood Herretts.

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I pocket carry a DAO M&P 340. This one is pretty though and makes a nice desk drawer piece.
The Herretts are comfy and that SA trigger is smooth and very, very short and light as compared to the DAO revolvers and bottom feeders I carry.
 
tipoc - I'm right there with you on this one.

I live rural, and a SA option is almost mandatory as I see it. You never know when you're going to have to take "that shot." That's why I carry an SP101 with a hammer spur as much as I can.

But...

Alot of times I can't, so I pocket carry a 642 for an effortless snag-free draw. It's not an "everything" gun but a tool of convenience.

But...

In all honesty, I would prefer an M38 or 638 to the 642. The money isn't there for that option right now, but it'll happen.

(btw - that pic of your Cobra floored me)

rd
 
I believe the hammer could be useful if you had to make a longer than normal range shot with a snubbie. Perhaps from around a corner at a gun man that hasn't seen you yet. Wouldn't you like the help of the SA then to make a COM or CNS shot?
 
OK, so we're worried about an SA trigger pull being more dangerous than a DA pull.
But...
Should you be pointing your gun at something you aren't willing to kill in the first place?
Should you have your finger on the trigger if you're not planning on shooting someone pretty much right now?
And why is a revolver with a cocked hammer any less safe than a Browning High Power or 1911 with a cocked hammer?
Also, Army and Navy Colts, Smith & Wessons, Remingtons, Single action Armies and various other single action revolvers were used for quite some time as defensive weapons and no one ever seemed to have any problem getting them cocked fast enough use them in self defense.
Personally, I think that saying "you won't have time to cock your gun" is kind of a rediculous argument. Training to use DA as a first option is probably better, but I still don't see the problem with SA.
 
I live rural, and a SA option is almost mandatory as I see it. You never know when you're going to have to take "that shot." That's why I carry an SP101 with a hammer spur as much as I can. But... A lot of times I can't, so I pocket carry a 642 for an effortless snag-free draw. It's not an "everything" gun but a tool of convenience.

Couldn't agree more, rd rancher!

I believe the hammer could be useful if you had to make a longer than normal range shot with a snubbie. Perhaps from around a corner at a gun man that hasn't seen you yet. Wouldn't you like the help of the SA then to make a COM or CNS shot?

Ben, to me that makes a lot of sense for a combat situation, but you'll have to help me understand how a civilian could justify the use of deadly force for self defense in shooting at someone at a distance who hasn't seen you yet. Combat is one thing, last resort self defense seems to me to be a lot different.

Should you be pointing your gun at something you aren't willing to kill in the first place? Should you have your finger on the trigger if you're not planning on shooting someone pretty much right now?

Excellent points, goon. However, Ayoob and others have made their recommendations, and I think they probably have as much to do with real world experience in psychology and physiology as they may have to do with litigation risk. I'll add my two bits worth for your consideration: you point the gun and are ready to shoot right now; the attacker then ceases to threaten. At that point you have no justification for shooting, intentionally or unintentionally.

And why is a revolver with a cocked hammer any less safe than a Browning High Power or 1911 with a cocked hammer?

Also an excellent point excellent, and of course it isn't. Those weapons were both developed for military use, and while the Texas Rangers and a lot of other law enforcement groups have used them in the past, they are rapidly falling out of favor and are being replaced by DAO pistols.

One recent exception is the Tacoma Police Department, which has adopted both DAO and Kimber 1911 pistols.

A friend of mine who is a policeman carries a small Kimber 1911 type .45 for back-up. He knows what he's doing.

To be frank, I really don't like double action shooting very much at all. I was accustomed to off-hand practice at twenty-five yards with revolvers and autoloaders, and I never saw any point in the Centennial or its stop-break predecessor, or for that matter the Webley bobbed-hammer revolver. The recent trend toward DAO semi-automatics was a mystery to me. I bought a Model 60 for that reason--steel, with a hammer and with a longer barrel for control.

Then I took the state concealed carry course. As mentioned before, two key points were don't cock and a hammer is a hook. In the demonstrations, a simulated deadly force scenario involves a man charging straight at you from the distance at which it was first clear that deadly force was justified--a little more than 20 feet. (You are not permitted to produce the weapon here unless you are under clear and immediate threat). Closure time was a couple of seconds. Quick draw, no sight picture, no time to cock if you wanted to, attacker may or may not cease and desist when he sees the gun.

That and the desire for a smaller, lighter CC weapon led to my purchase of the Airweight Centennial.

Well, I'm getting to where I'm OK with the DA pull in that circumstance, but the draw is still pretty iffy.

For anything else, I do want a hammer.

I hope you find this useful and that I do not appear argumentative.
 
Kleanbore -

You don't come across as argumentative at all and all your points make sense.
Gotta give those guys credit because they do undoubtedly know more about CCW use than I do and I'm sure that they're making those recommendations to try and keep us out of trouble.
But I still do kind of wonder...
If the BG is coming at you or me and we determine that we need to shoot right now, isn't it going to be too late for him already?
I've never been in any defensive situation with a gun but the conventional wisdom is that they often happen from such a close range and so fast that you barely have time to think.
Given that if one of us pulls a gun we'd better be pretty sure of the need to use it, I kind of think that the BG will be leaking from a couple holes by the time he figures out he's about to get hurt and drops his weapon.
I'm not advocating shooting an unarmed attacker - just saying that the time issue cuts both ways. He may very well not have time to think it over and drop his weapon before he gets shot.
For getting the gun cocked, I'd think thats an issue of training as much as anything else. If you were for some reason carrying a SAA for defense you would have to cock the gun and I'd bet you good money that you'd get that gun cocked fast enough! ;)

At this point in my revolver career, I admit that it is probably going to be easier to just learn to shoot DA accurately for defense purposes.
No need to complicate things.
 
Long ago, I owned a custom Ruger GP100 with a bobbed hammer. That feature has become THE cool, modern, tactical feature of the day for revolver shooters. All the revolvers I own now HAVE the hammer spur.

Why do I prefer HAVING the hammer spur?

==> I had a revolver fail during a match because of a high primer. Now I rotation check my gun every time I pick it up to put it in my holster. For that, I need the hammer spur.

==> I have days when I can barely use my hands and might literally be unable to fire 5-6 rounds double action. Now I insist on carrying a revolver I can cock against WHATEVER and fire in an emergency.

==> I also found that much of the joy of handling a revolver was lost without the hammer. Now I only carry revolvers that allow me that visceral connection you only get from working the action of a fine wheelgun.

As to the legal ramifications for carrying a gun that was originally designed with a hammer spur and has been used that way by professional lawmen, shooters, hunters and home owners for more than 100 years? Well, I think I can defend myself on that point.

Please remember, anybody can sue anybody for anything. If you use your gun and the BG (or his family) wants to sue you, he'll sue because you shot double action instead of the "more accurate" single action, because you used (or didn't use) a flashlight, because you "panicked" and fired all six shots (or because you shot the BG "execution style" with a single bullet).

My advice on many of these issues is to do what you think is right, and be ready to defend your choice.
 
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On my snubby I'd rather have a hammer and not need it than need a hammer and not have it. Should I have to "thread the needle" I want to take as much trigger out of the equation as possible.
 
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